263. “We spend 102% of what we make. Will we ever stop drowning?”





Ramit Sethi of I Will Teach You To Be Rich talks to Freya and Blake, a couple in their mid-40s with two young children who are facing one of the most urgent financial situations we’ve seen on the show. Together, they earn around $143K a year, but their fixed costs are at 102%, they have $0 in savings, only $180 invested, and more than $96K in debt. Freya applied because she feared they were close to becoming homeless.

 

On the surface, their problem looks like debt. Underneath, it’s avoidance, guilt, lack of partnership, and years of “we’ll figure it out later.” Freya carries the emotional labour of the household and money decisions, while Blake admits he avoids the numbers and tries to solve problems by simply making more money. Ramit helps them confront the reality of their situation, stop tinkering around the edges, and build a radical plan that gives their family a chance to get stable.

In this episode we uncover:

Why Freya and Blake are spending more than they make every month
How their fixed costs reached 102% of their income
Why having a $143K income still isn’t enough when there’s no system
The $96K debt number that forces them to face reality
Why Freya feels like she has to manage everything alone
Blake’s “ostrich” approach to money and avoidance
How trips, skiing, and everyday spending became symptoms of a bigger issue
Why being intelligent doesn’t protect you from bad money decisions
The emotional cost of having $0 in savings with two young children
How childhood, privilege, resentment, and guilt shaped their money habits
Why hustling stops working once fixed costs get too high
Ramit’s warning that they are weeks away from not being able to pay rent
Why Blake may need to aggressively increase his income
How they move from blame and panic into a shared plan
Their follow-up reflections on what finally felt doable

Chapters:

(00:01:20) Meet Freya and Blake

(00:03:30) Why Freya applied to speak with Ramit

(00:05:23) “Do you want to have a budget conversation?”

(00:05:56) The skiing trip that became a money fight

(00:08:22) The Mexico trip they couldn’t afford

(00:13:52) Savings are gone and the safety net has disappeared

(00:15:16) Freya carries the planning, groceries, kids, and money stress

(00:21:54) Looking at the Conscious Spending Plan together

(00:24:01) The real debt and net worth numbers land

(00:31:24) Why 102% fixed costs means they are broke

(00:32:04) Ramit warns they are weeks away from not paying rent

(00:34:54) Childhood money lessons and blame

(00:43:57) Borrowing money to avoid eviction

(00:48:11) Blake’s belief that more income will solve everything

(00:57:14) Guilt, family, and saying yes when they should say no

(01:03:00) Defining a realistic Rich Life from where they are now

(01:08:30) Childcare costs disappearing

(01:15:03) Freya asks Blake to help with grocery planning

(01:18:00) Why savings comes before debt payoff right now

(01:34:00) Why the plan finally feels doable

 

This episode is brought to you by:

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Have you or your partner realised you’re paying a 1% financial advisor hundreds of thousands of dollars in fees over your lifetime? Maybe you feel stuck because they’re your “family money guy,” If so, I want to talk. Apply to be on my podcast at https://iwt.com/apply

 

Transcript:

 

[00:00:00:00 – 00:00:01:13] Freya: It feels like a joke.

 

[00:00:01:14 – 00:00:13:20] Ramit: It means you are broke. Yeah. It means you’re spending more than you make every month. Every month. That’s the ballgame. Tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt. No savings, no investments. Two children. What are the real issues here?

 

[00:00:13:21 – 00:00:23:00] Blake: It’s dread and anxiety. Poor financial decisions made for one case. Cash down. We had to ask them. Hey, can we barfed in K because we’re about to get evicted.

 

[00:00:23:01 – 00:00:26:16] Freya: It feels like failure, especially with kids.

 

[00:00:26:19 – 00:00:47:29] Ramit: I would actually get angry. Angry at myself. Angry at my upbringing. Angry at each other. Angry at the dynamic that we have allowed ourselves to sink into. You are actually weeks away from not being able to pay your rent. And frankly, in order to not get evicted, you will need to confront the very thing that you have avoided your entire life.

 

[00:00:48:02 – 00:00:48:24] Ramit: Confrontation.

 

[00:00:48:27 – 00:00:57:13] Blake: I have to for prayer and my children. You want the kids to have a great future.

 

[00:00:57:16 – 00:01:18:14] Ramit: Today is a big day for money for couples because we are recording in our new studio. Now, if you have followed along for the last few years, you’ve noticed that we are always improving. Thanks to your feedback, my team and I are listening, and one of the things that I’ve wanted to do for a long time is go from audio only to video, and then to even higher quality video.

 

[00:01:18:21 – 00:01:36:24] Ramit: And I love seeing couples in the same room holding hands, crying, sometimes looking at each other. It tells me so much and I think it’s going to tell you a lot. So welcome to the new era of money for couples in our new studio. Today I’m kicking things off with Freya and Blake. They’re 45 and 47 years old.

 

[00:01:36:24 – 00:02:00:07] Ramit: They have two young children together, and they spend more than they make. Every single month, Freya applied to speak with me, and she wrote, we are living with our terrible choices right now. We are literally broke to the point that I’m worried we will be homeless. You can hear the panic almost jumping off her application. Let’s take a quick look at their numbers to see what they’re working with.

 

[00:02:00:09 – 00:02:35:02] Ramit: I’m looking at their Conscious Spending Plan or KSP. If you want my help with your own KSP, you can join my money coaching program at Shmoney coaching. Assets $5,000. Investments. $180. Wow. Savings. Zero. Debt. $96,000. Total net worth. Negative 90,999. Now, let’s take a look at their fixed costs 102%. Okay, that’s the ball game. They are spending far more than they make every single month.

 

[00:02:35:08 – 00:02:58:04] Ramit: Investments 1%. Savings zero. And guilt free spending is -2%. We know that’s impossible. Looking at these numbers, it’s no surprise that Freya is panicking about their financial situation. It’s actually quite dire. And when you see numbers like this, it is very easy to just take a huge hatchet and say, okay, we need to start doing this just as this.

 

[00:02:58:06 – 00:03:25:24] Ramit: Maybe we do, but we need to find out why they even got into this situation in the first place. So we are actually addressing the root problem. That’s my goal today. Now let’s get started with Freya and Blake. There was something that stood out to me from your application. Freya. I wonder if I can read it. You wrote where basically one missed rent payment away from an eviction notice.

 

[00:03:25:26 – 00:03:27:00] Ramit: Is that accurate?

 

[00:03:27:02 – 00:03:34:04] Freya: It feels accurate. We don’t have, like, the kind of warm, fuzzy landlords that are like. Yeah, yeah, we used to have one of them.

 

[00:03:34:04 – 00:03:36:02] Ramit: Have you ever gotten an eviction notice? No.

 

[00:03:36:05 – 00:03:38:23] Freya: Okay. I’ve never. I’ve always made it work.

 

[00:03:38:26 – 00:03:39:12] Ramit: 

 

[00:03:39:14 – 00:03:58:05] Freya: And that is I think the end part of my issue with all of this is I’ve always managed to make it work. I’ve always managed to come up with money somehow or, you know, talk my way out of being a month late in rent and being like, I get our promise. You know, like things like that my whole life.

 

[00:03:58:06 – 00:04:03:05] Ramit: How long has it felt this dire? Oh, my God, I’m 21.

 

[00:04:03:07 – 00:04:04:26] Freya: The pandemic. You would think.

 

[00:04:05:03 – 00:04:06:00] Blake: It got hit us hard.

 

[00:04:06:04 – 00:04:06:13] Freya: Yeah.

 

[00:04:06:18 – 00:04:15:07] Ramit: And, does it feel equally dire, or does one of you feel the weight of money more?

 

[00:04:15:09 – 00:04:21:21] Freya: I don’t know. I mean, I know how I feel. I don’t know how you feel. Honestly, I feel like I think about it more and I talk about it more.

 

[00:04:21:23 – 00:04:30:11] Blake: It’s tough to call. Thinks about it more, but I certainly think about it all the time. Every day. Yeah. And every day. Late at night. You know.

 

[00:04:30:13 – 00:04:33:02] Ramit: Because it’s interesting that you don’t know how each other feels about money.

 

[00:04:33:04 – 00:04:44:09] Freya: He doesn’t like to talk about it. We’ll do it. But then I’m like, okay, now we need to have our weekly follow ups. And that just that part doesn’t happen. And then I start feeling like a nag, and then we just kind of rinse and repeat.

 

[00:04:44:16 – 00:04:52:03] Ramit: When you hear Freya saying, we need to have a budget meeting, what is your initial emotional reaction to that?

 

[00:04:52:06 – 00:05:10:19] Blake: Dread. I’d say yeah. Because I had it’s dread and then anxiety and it just means like I need to make more money. I’m the classic sort of like I need to just go make more money. So then we have that and the budget conversation can be a little more positive.

 

[00:05:10:21 – 00:05:12:16] Ramit: Do you want to have a budget conversation?

 

[00:05:12:18 – 00:05:13:02] Blake: No.

 

[00:05:13:02 – 00:05:22:07] Ramit: It was honestly, I don’t want to have a budget. Yeah. Somebody comes to me the like, we got to talk about the budget. I’m like, what the I don’t want to do that. I’d rather be dead. Yeah. Do you want to have a budget meeting?

 

[00:05:22:13 – 00:05:26:26] Freya: Kind of I like, I like, I like, I like that kind of stuff. I do like.

 

[00:05:26:26 – 00:05:28:11] Ramit: What? Like checking things off.

 

[00:05:28:11 – 00:05:32:17] Freya: Yes. I love to do this. I have different notebooks with different to do lists.

 

[00:05:32:18 – 00:05:32:29] Ramit: Okay?

 

[00:05:32:29 – 00:05:33:28] Freya: Different parts of my life.

 

[00:05:34:01 – 00:05:36:22] Ramit: What the hell you multiple to do? No.

 

[00:05:36:24 – 00:05:49:24] Freya: Yes. I have a work on. I have a household one. I have one for the kids. I have, yeah, one for my personal growth. Like, wow, I do, I’m not. And but, you know, it doesn’t always translate into a lot of things I would like to do. Okay.

 

[00:05:49:27 – 00:05:55:29] Ramit: Now you also mentioned that you don’t communicate effectively about money. Can you give me an example?

 

[00:05:56:02 – 00:06:11:29] Freya: We when we had just moved, we were kind of like in the same situation. We always are as like end of the month. Oh my God. And he was like, oh, I, my friend, we should go up to Bagnell Bachelor and go skiing for the day. And I was like, what? I was like, but that’s for rich people, sport.

 

[00:06:12:02 – 00:06:25:05] Freya: And then it just it literally just would devolve into a fight. Then I was like, well, we can’t afford it right now. I was like, it’s going to be thousands of dollars to go. You know, he wants to get the kids lessons. They’ve never skiing, I don’t ski. He’s like, you get a lesson and you get a lesson.

 

[00:06:25:05 – 00:06:41:07] Freya: And it’s like, oh, we have lift passes. So it’s not that big of a deal. And you know, it ended up being a fight. He acquiesced and say, we won’t go. I feel guilty. He was so psyched to go, had it gone skiing in like ten years. And he used to go all the time. And so I finally said, okay, fine, let’s just do it.

 

[00:06:41:07 – 00:06:42:27] Freya: We’ll figure it out because I felt bad.

 

[00:06:43:01 – 00:06:45:22] Ramit: Did you go? We did. How much did it cost?

 

[00:06:45:24 – 00:06:48:11] Freya: Probably about two. Two K at the end of the day.

 

[00:06:48:13 – 00:06:50:15] Blake: Okay. We spent money that we should not have spent.

 

[00:06:50:22 – 00:06:52:29] Ramit: Okay. Is that true? You shouldn’t have spent it.

 

[00:06:53:01 – 00:06:55:07] Freya: We didn’t have to spend.

 

[00:06:55:09 – 00:06:56:25] Blake: We didn’t have it to spend.

 

[00:06:57:02 – 00:07:00:02] Freya: Yeah. I felt really guilty for saying no.

 

[00:07:00:04 – 00:07:05:05] Ramit: Have you ever just embraced it and said, okay, good. We’re not going.

 

[00:07:05:08 – 00:07:17:04] Freya: It depends. I think I was that the moment we had just moved. We didn’t know. We don’t know anybody there. And I just, I think I was feeling a lot of that guilt. I have said no, but I probably say yes more than no, I will say.

 

[00:07:17:06 – 00:07:33:04] Ramit: And interestingly, you acquiesced, as she put it, like you said. All right, fine. We don’t have to go. But then when she said, okay, let’s go, you were like, cool, let’s do it. Yeah. Is there a world where you were like, no, you’re right, we shouldn’t go there because of financial reasons.

 

[00:07:33:07 – 00:07:35:24] Blake: In that particular situation?

 

[00:07:35:27 – 00:07:37:19] Ramit: No, no.

 

[00:07:37:21 – 00:07:37:27] Blake: Because.

 

[00:07:37:27 – 00:07:38:28] Ramit: You wanted to go?

 

[00:07:39:00 – 00:07:46:10] Blake: Yeah. In other situations, we’ve certainly made, like, you know. Hey, let’s cancel this. This is not a good. Yeah.

 

[00:07:46:12 – 00:07:47:13] Freya: Yeah. That’s rare.

 

[00:07:47:15 – 00:07:53:26] Ramit: Okay, let me understand a little bit more about the relationship. Are you married? No. Okay. Do you have kids? Yes. How old?

 

[00:07:53:27 – 00:07:54:22] Freya: Six and almost.

 

[00:07:54:22 – 00:07:58:11] Ramit: Five. And are there other children from prior relationship?

 

[00:07:58:15 – 00:07:59:05] Freya: I have two.

 

[00:07:59:08 – 00:07:59:22] Ramit: You have two?

 

[00:07:59:23 – 00:08:02:04] Freya: A 26 year old and a 22 year old.

 

[00:08:02:09 – 00:08:20:19] Ramit: Got it. Okay. And do the older children live at home with you? Okay, so the two young kids live with you? Yeah. Got it. Okay. I want to get a little bit more understanding of the dynamic here. So I’m curious about another example. Okay. Where the two of you are not on the same page with money.

 

[00:08:20:22 – 00:08:22:24] Freya: Lots to choose from.

 

[00:08:22:26 – 00:08:24:05] Blake: Mexico trip with my parents.

 

[00:08:24:06 – 00:08:25:16] Freya: That one’s probably a good one for you to.

 

[00:08:25:20 – 00:08:26:15] Ramit: What happened?

 

[00:08:26:17 – 00:08:34:09] Blake: It was a summer trip to La Paz in Mexico with the kids. Finances are tight.

 

[00:08:34:12 – 00:08:52:10] Blake: I was very nervous about that because the vicissitudes of my income are tough. And knowing that end of the summer always gets a little tight because there’s not as much work. Yeah. I felt like for I really wanted to go, I mean, I wanted to go to. So I was more in the position of like, I don’t saying no.

 

[00:08:52:10 – 00:08:53:09] Blake: Like I don’t think we should do.

 

[00:08:53:10 – 00:08:57:03] Freya: Parents who are involved. So I think your parents are going. So it’s probably harder for you to.

 

[00:08:57:07 – 00:09:01:19] Blake: Yeah. Parents going. Yeah. And we took a trip to Mexico.

 

[00:09:01:22 – 00:09:02:18] Freya: On a credit card.

 

[00:09:02:20 – 00:09:04:15] Blake: Yeah. On credit card.

 

[00:09:04:17 – 00:09:07:18] Ramit: How much did it cost? Three and a half. Something like that.

 

[00:09:07:19 – 00:09:08:20] Blake: Yeah, 3500.

 

[00:09:08:21 – 00:09:10:08] Freya: Not sure. Yeah, it might have been more.

 

[00:09:10:13 – 00:09:19:13] Ramit: Okay. And then, when you got back, what was the moment where you looked at the credit card receipt and you were like, oh. What happened?

 

[00:09:19:16 – 00:09:33:20] Blake: This just added to the debt. You know, you get back, you’re like, okay, that’s amazing trip and double memories with the family and the parents and the kids. And, then you get back in there, you know, to kick in the teeth cause you’re like.

 

[00:09:33:23 – 00:09:51:26] Freya: And we thought about it. Yeah. Like, you would. You would bring it up in in financial conversations. It would be like, well, you decided that we should go and now we split. Yeah. So it would turn into like, almost like ano. Sometimes I feel like. And then, you know, I’m a oh, I did it for the kids in the, in your parents and like.

 

[00:09:51:26 – 00:09:54:17] Freya: Yeah. So it’s it definitely turned into a sticking point.

 

[00:09:54:21 – 00:10:02:16] Ramit: How often does that happen that you did this. You said that a lot. Yeah. You see a therapist. No.

 

[00:10:02:19 – 00:10:05:18] Freya: No not anymore. We did. It’s been a while.

 

[00:10:05:25 – 00:10:07:25] Ramit: Why? Money.

 

[00:10:07:28 – 00:10:09:10] Freya: Partially. It’s expensive.

 

[00:10:09:12 – 00:10:09:22] Ramit: Because.

 

[00:10:09:22 – 00:10:14:04] Blake: Our therapist was $175 dollars for a pop.

 

[00:10:14:04 – 00:10:15:00] Ramit: In is expensive.

 

[00:10:15:02 – 00:10:16:16] Freya: It’s very expensive.

 

[00:10:16:16 – 00:10:32:16] Ramit: And you mentioned in your application you don’t even have money for a bankruptcy attorney. Yeah. In that Mexico conversation where you talked about, should we go? No we shouldn’t. What was the role that each of you played? If you look back at that conversation.

 

[00:10:32:20 – 00:10:35:14] Freya: I was the driver and the planner 100%.

 

[00:10:35:18 – 00:10:43:13] Ramit: You were the one who wanted to go. Yeah. Okay. And then you planned the trip. Yeah. This is your parents involved? Okay. And what was your role?

 

[00:10:43:15 – 00:10:52:29] Blake: Just come along and try not to spend it too much while were there. Or, like, make some money before we go. Make some money when we come back.

 

[00:10:53:00 – 00:10:57:26] Ramit: Well, like, what was it time in Mexico where you were like, let’s not order that because it’s too much money. Well, I think we did.

 

[00:10:57:28 – 00:11:08:09] Freya: Not once, but we didn’t. We were like, we’re not like super extravagant. When we do travel. But like, we did have a your mom wanted a private chef for the week.

 

[00:11:08:14 – 00:11:09:29] Ramit: Did your parents offer to pay?

 

[00:11:10:00 – 00:11:11:02] Freya: They paid for part of it.

 

[00:11:11:03 – 00:11:17:24] Ramit: Okay. Yeah. And was there a conversation where you said, like, hey, right now it’s not a good time. Could you help or. We can’t do that.

 

[00:11:17:26 – 00:11:24:26] Blake: Yeah. I’ve definitely for moments like that, it’s been, you know, parents have been very generous and like, hey, let us cover the house.

 

[00:11:24:28 – 00:11:52:23] Ramit: Or something. Yeah. Yeah. Even still, you spent 3500 dollars on it. Yeah. The fact that this couple is clearly intelligent and still in almost $100,000 of debt is a big lesson for everybody watching this show, which is intelligence matters. Of course, it matters. But just being smart doesn’t mean you’re going to be wealthy. In fact, just being smart doesn’t mean you’re going to stay debt free.

 

[00:11:52:28 – 00:12:11:00] Ramit: A lot of you are too smart for your own good thinking. Oh, we’ll just figure it out. We’ll just solve it. You know, maybe instead of being too smart for your own good, maybe I’d rather take a ten point decrease in the IQ and be like, I don’t understand this. I better read a book because I won’t be able to figure this out unless I learn.

 

[00:12:11:01 – 00:12:32:12] Ramit: So before you come writing a bunch of angry comments, just ask yourself, is there a world where I could be in this situation too? You know, I’m kind of stuck speaking to both of you. You’re obviously very intelligent. I’m hearing words like vicissitudes and trepidatious, you know, like you’re going to LA pause. Like when we put all those things together.

 

[00:12:32:14 – 00:12:41:20] Ramit: You’re obviously intelligent, yet you are, as you put it, a month away from an eviction notice. Yeah. What do you both think is going on here?

 

[00:12:41:23 – 00:13:01:16] Freya: I’ve gotten very used to money being here or not here, and I just have to adapt. And that’s. I got kicked out when I was a teenager. So I’ve been like, on my own, supporting myself since I was 17. I’m just so used to being in a state of not having anything that is just it’s I guess it’s comfortable for me.

 

[00:13:01:16 – 00:13:17:06] Freya: It doesn’t worry me. Well, it didn’t worry me that much also because I had like, I feel like I have so long to fix the problem. I had so much time, you know, it’s like so for me it was just like, hey man, money comes when it goes. I’ve had money taken from me by bad relationships, things like that.

 

[00:13:17:06 – 00:13:31:02] Freya: So I’m just used to being, even if I have it, not being able to like see it as like a permanent fixture that could help me do anything. So I’m just very I think that’s part of my issue where I’m just like, yeah, it’ll work itself out, okay.

 

[00:13:31:05 – 00:13:46:04] Blake: Like money comes in, money goes. However, you know, when you get through periods that are sometimes out of your control and money is not coming, then you’re really faced with some dire situations.

 

[00:13:46:07 – 00:13:52:09] Ramit: And is that acceptable? Like, are you cool with it? Have you done that before? You can do it again?

 

[00:13:52:11 – 00:14:16:15] Blake: No. There’s always been a bit of a safety net or, you know, some freelance gigs that I can pick up quickly in the last few years. It’s then that safety net has shrunk, savings have shrunk. We’ve used it to cover some stuff here and there to pay down a card or, you know, whatever. Just, you know, we’ve just had that now that safety net is gone.

 

[00:14:16:18 – 00:14:25:04] Blake: The savings from all the years 401 K is cashed out. Poor financial decisions made. But to cover monthly costs.

 

[00:14:25:04 – 00:14:27:00] Ramit: Who made those decisions.

 

[00:14:27:02 – 00:14:46:14] Freya: Together I think I mean I think I definitely suggested stuff like the 41K or whatever like and you agreed to do it. I could tell you were a lot more hesitant than I was, but I feel like we felt like it was in a time during the panic from neither one of us was working, and it was like, and I was, I think we had a baby and I was pregnant.

 

[00:14:46:17 – 00:14:47:04] Freya: It was like.

 

[00:14:47:04 – 00:14:54:13] Ramit: Are you always the driver of the finances in this relationship? Yes. Okay. And your role is you’re along for the ride.

 

[00:14:54:15 – 00:14:56:05] Blake: Is that right? Along for the ride.

 

[00:14:56:05 – 00:15:01:16] Ramit: Maybe putting up some slight resistance, but basically along for the ride. That’s what I’m reading.

 

[00:15:01:22 – 00:15:15:17] Blake: Yeah. I tend to be like, okay, finances are, you know, cost like think of them and I don’t I try to really limit spending. Like I don’t buy a lot of stuff. Right.

 

[00:15:15:20 – 00:15:16:24] Ramit: This is common with men.

 

[00:15:16:27 – 00:15:31:15] Freya: Yeah. But when he says I am a spender it’s also because I do all the planning, I do all the kid stuff, I do the grocery shopping, I do everything. So I feel like and it’s a point of contention I always say that. So I’m like, well, yeah, you’re not spending any money because you’re not doing any of the things I need to be.

 

[00:15:31:17 – 00:15:33:27] Ramit: I didn’t hear him say that. You are a spender.

 

[00:15:33:29 – 00:15:40:23] Freya: What do you say? Okay. We’ve had this conversation before, and I feel like he’s like I’m the spender and he’s the not spender.

 

[00:15:40:26 – 00:16:09:23] Ramit: I hate this dynamic in a heterosexual relationship. The woman is the one who’s tracking everything. She’s worrying because she sees the numbers. And then you have the guy who’s like, I don’t really pay attention to it very much. It causes an ever increasing rift because she is down in the weeds, necessarily. But like, I hate when people are in the weeds taking on all this emotional labor and he’s oblivious to it.

 

[00:16:09:24 – 00:16:29:06] Ramit: It’s just not partnership. Look, everybody has blind spots. You do? I do. My guests certainly do. And that’s okay. What’s important is to recognize those blind spots, whether it’s on your own or with the help of your partner, and then make a plan to fix it.

 

[00:16:29:08 – 00:16:33:19] Ramit: Walk me through how money flows in your relationship for you.

 

[00:16:33:22 – 00:16:57:18] Freya: I have not been working a lot lately with the kids. It’s been tough. But usually it’s like income that we rely on and it’s sporadic. So it depends on how, you know, how was the the month before? Do we even have any left over? It just feels like a scramble. It’s like what hole to plug first.

 

[00:16:57:22 – 00:16:58:11] Ramit: 

 

[00:16:58:14 – 00:17:14:07] Freya: Because maybe we’re a little late on rent and a couple of the utilities. And so it’s like plug those holes up. Oh but here comes summer camp. What are we going to end it at six. It feels like a scramble. It feels like it comes in and it’s gone quickly because we’re patching holes.

 

[00:17:14:13 – 00:17:26:27] Ramit: So you’re making decisions about what bill to pay, including some of your fixed costs like rent or utilities. What about the non fixed costs. So, you mentioned summer camp.

 

[00:17:26:28 – 00:17:27:16] Freya: Yeah.

 

[00:17:27:18 – 00:17:35:03] Ramit: Or let’s say eating out trips whatever the non-discretionary. So what about that.

 

[00:17:35:05 – 00:17:39:12] Freya: When we have it we spend it. And then when we don’t we panic.

 

[00:17:39:15 – 00:17:39:25] Ramit: 

 

[00:17:40:02 – 00:17:57:24] Freya: And that’s literally how it feels. It’s just like pure panic. Otherwise like oh we have a couple extra hundred dollars. Let’s, let’s just go to dinner this one time. Right. You know and then it’s like oh well so-and-so really wants to go to like, we should, we should try a different director of that relationship. And here we are at dinner, doing the same thing we always do.

 

[00:17:57:27 – 00:17:59:04] Ramit: What do you get out of it?

 

[00:17:59:06 – 00:18:02:17] Freya: Honestly, for me, it feels like a just a minute of escape.

 

[00:18:02:20 – 00:18:05:10] Ramit: Escape from all the crap that is.

 

[00:18:05:10 – 00:18:16:07] Freya: Going on financially, which is like completely backwards. I know that’s what it feels like. I can forget about it for a minute. Enjoy it for a second and then worry about it later.

 

[00:18:16:08 – 00:18:17:06] Ramit: And Blake.

 

[00:18:17:11 – 00:18:37:21] Blake: I’m very similar to that, you know, kick the can down. You know live in the moment. Have that good time. Work your butt off to make the money back. They are very sort of myopic take on it. Yeah. And not no real future planning at all.

 

[00:18:37:24 – 00:18:38:10] Ramit: 

 

[00:18:38:26 – 00:18:50:21] Blake: Frankly and it’s. Yeah it’s and that weighs on you, you know, that weighs emotionally that you have that moment, that dinner out or whatever. And then you’re like, oh my God. We spent, you know, $1,000 on dinners this month.

 

[00:18:50:27 – 00:18:54:25] Ramit: It weighs on you, but it seems like not enough to make a change.

 

[00:18:55:01 – 00:18:57:02] Blake: Or only recently have we made those changes.

 

[00:18:57:07 – 00:18:57:26] Ramit: What changes?

 

[00:18:58:03 – 00:19:17:28] Freya: We and I cut down on all of our subscriptions. I got a bot, a software thing to do. Budgeting. So we’ve been like. I’ve been really paying attention. It’s only been like a month, but like, I’m very invested in, like keeping track of things now, which isn’t the same as saving yet. But I’m like, I could’ve told you where I was spending money before.

 

[00:19:17:29 – 00:19:21:23] Ramit: Has anything in the relationship dynamic changed around money in the last month?

 

[00:19:21:26 – 00:19:26:19] Blake: I mean, we we have done weekly sit down, save all of our sit.

 

[00:19:26:21 – 00:19:32:06] Freya: I’m trying to do weekly sit downs. We’ve done it twice and we have not done it in three weeks.

 

[00:19:32:13 – 00:19:54:16] Ramit: The dynamic seems to have been Freya, you drive it and often you are also contributing to spending without knowing where the money’s going. Blake is along for the ride. There’s not real collaboration. And so even when you are trying to make a change in the last month, it’s just you doing more work.

 

[00:19:54:19 – 00:20:00:24] Freya: That’s 100% how it feels. Yeah, I’ve done this before. This is not the first time I’ve tried to get our finances in order try to make it.

 

[00:20:00:25 – 00:20:03:25] Ramit: Maybe if I try again. Yeah, maybe. And this time in.

 

[00:20:04:02 – 00:20:09:28] Freya: Time, it’s going to be better. But it’s it’s literally the same thing. I ended up giving up because it feels like I’m doing everything.

 

[00:20:09:28 – 00:20:10:28] Ramit: Why don’t you do it differently?

 

[00:20:11:04 – 00:20:17:28] Freya: I don’t know how. I guess I can’t figure out, like, I feel like I can’t do it by myself. I don’t know, I feel like, but yeah, I guess so.

 

[00:20:18:00 – 00:20:19:20] Ramit: Why don’t you do it differently?

 

[00:20:19:22 – 00:20:22:11] Freya: I get to say. Well, I tried.

 

[00:20:22:14 – 00:20:26:07] Ramit: And when you say that, what does it feel like?

 

[00:20:26:10 – 00:20:27:18] Freya: It’s not my fault.

 

[00:20:27:20 – 00:20:28:09] Ramit: 

 

[00:20:28:12 – 00:20:34:23] Freya: I think it’s a definite like me being able to shift some blame and be like, well I don’t know. Okay. I can’t do it alone.

 

[00:20:34:26 – 00:20:45:19] Ramit: Yeah. And then Blake she’s setting up the meetings. But you have not taken on a role an active role in this. What do you get out of that guilt.

 

[00:20:45:22 – 00:20:46:16] Blake: Anxiety.

 

[00:20:46:20 – 00:20:48:23] Ramit: You get that. Then why don’t you change.

 

[00:20:48:25 – 00:20:55:14] Blake: Tough question. I mean it’s not tough I. Yeah I need to change. I mean I don’t know why I don’t.

 

[00:20:55:16 – 00:20:56:03] Ramit: Think about it.

 

[00:20:56:10 – 00:20:59:01] Blake: Yeah. I don’t I’m not sure the real.

 

[00:20:59:03 – 00:21:00:25] Freya: From my perspective I’m not him.

 

[00:21:00:27 – 00:21:01:09] Ramit: 

 

[00:21:01:11 – 00:21:11:14] Freya: Been to lots of therapy in my life though. And I’m just like you know you just you’ve had a life when you were growing up where responsibility wasn’t really a thing. You know it’s like a very privileged upbringing.

 

[00:21:11:17 – 00:21:14:23] Ramit: In your opinion, what is Blake getting out of this.

 

[00:21:14:25 – 00:21:18:26] Freya: Of a complete avoidance doesn’t have to deal with it. Someone else will take care of the.

 

[00:21:18:26 – 00:21:19:28] Ramit: Problem, which is you.

 

[00:21:19:29 – 00:21:20:26] Freya: Which is me right now.

 

[00:21:20:27 – 00:21:31:23] Ramit: Freya, you called Blake an ostrich with money, I think. I guess, yeah, I think I understand what that means. And do you accept that comment? Would you agree that you are an ostrich with money 100%.

 

[00:21:31:28 – 00:21:38:14] Blake: Okay. I just try to make more money and then not talk about it. Yeah.

 

[00:21:38:17 – 00:21:53:11] Ramit: Maybe the conversations will go away. Yes. Yeah. If I just make more, then we don’t have to talk about this for another month. And maybe one day maybe never. Classic. That’s what’s going on. That’s descriptive. That doesn’t tell us what to do about it.

 

[00:21:53:13 – 00:21:54:02] Freya: Right.

 

[00:21:54:04 – 00:22:00:07] Ramit: I need to look at the numbers. Can we take a look. Okay. Okay. What was it like putting the conscious spending plan together?

 

[00:22:00:09 – 00:22:04:08] Freya: You don’t know because I did that coming up.

 

[00:22:04:11 – 00:22:09:01] Ramit: That, that answers my question. So you didn’t do it together? Why not? Is that the instructions?

 

[00:22:09:04 – 00:22:13:07] Freya: We did. I did share it with him. But I had already done it because I was like, I sent it.

 

[00:22:13:12 – 00:22:22:04] Ramit: You sent the link. You go. Here it is. FYI. And then you checked off one of those notepads. Exactly. I’m kind of missing the spirit trade first. Yeah.

 

[00:22:22:05 – 00:22:25:13] Blake: We actually sat down on the couch and went through.

 

[00:22:25:15 – 00:22:28:17] Ramit: Did you look through it? Oh, yeah. And what was that like for you?

 

[00:22:28:19 – 00:22:32:20] Blake: Shocking. You know that, like, wait, we have 500 whatever.

 

[00:22:32:20 – 00:22:34:20] Freya: $770 in subscriptions.

 

[00:22:34:24 – 00:22:35:13] Ramit: Yeah. Okay.

 

[00:22:35:16 – 00:22:36:14] Blake: Okay. Descriptions at.

 

[00:22:36:14 – 00:22:37:02] Freya: Seven. We did.

 

[00:22:37:02 – 00:22:47:00] Blake: It. No insurance on on our house. You know, that we rented in Venice. The hadn’t gotten canceled with our car. There was bundle a bundle that was unbundled when I canceled it. Yeah.

 

[00:22:47:00 – 00:22:49:17] Ramit: So you’re paying a lot of money. You didn’t realize what else.

 

[00:22:49:19 – 00:22:55:13] Blake: You know, shock at the amount of money we spend on food monthly.

 

[00:22:55:15 – 00:22:57:03] Ramit: Do you remember how much that was?

 

[00:22:57:06 – 00:23:04:07] Blake: I think we’re on 3000 range above 3000. Okay. With groceries and eating out and all those.

 

[00:23:04:11 – 00:23:06:07] Ramit: So you saw that number and what was your reaction?

 

[00:23:06:12 – 00:23:10:15] Blake: Like? We need to figure out a new, new system.

 

[00:23:10:21 – 00:23:12:12] Ramit: All right. Did you.

 

[00:23:12:14 – 00:23:20:07] Blake: We switched grocery stores, talked about the food that we eat.

 

[00:23:20:09 – 00:23:22:28] Ramit: What do you eat for $3,000 a month?

 

[00:23:23:00 – 00:23:26:28] Blake: We eat really, really well at home. Okay. We are not.

 

[00:23:26:29 – 00:23:28:04] Ramit: Like, what does that mean?

 

[00:23:28:06 – 00:23:41:05] Blake: I mean, Fred’s a chef. Yeah, she is an amazing cook. And we eat like we’re at a restaurant almost every night. Okay. And it is a luxury, and it’s amazing.

 

[00:23:41:10 – 00:23:46:18] Ramit: All right, let’s take a look at these numbers actually. What does it feel like to look at these numbers?

 

[00:23:46:20 – 00:23:51:16] Freya: I’m a little nervous. I don’t remember every single number that was on there. Okay. So I haven’t looked at it since.

 

[00:23:51:16 – 00:23:54:13] Ramit: So how long has it been since you put this together?

 

[00:23:54:15 – 00:23:55:28] Freya: I guess about a month.

 

[00:23:56:01 – 00:24:01:15] Ramit: All right. Can you read me the word in bold and the number next to it for this entire box?

 

[00:24:01:15 – 00:24:17:24] Freya: Assets, $5,000. Investments, $180. Savings, zero. Debt 96,179. Total net worth -$90,999.

 

[00:24:18:02 – 00:24:20:15] Ramit: All right. Well, was, if you like to see those numbers.

 

[00:24:20:15 – 00:24:22:15] Freya: Nauseating.

 

[00:24:22:17 – 00:24:24:03] Ramit: Blake, what about for you?

 

[00:24:24:05 – 00:24:25:01] Blake: Feels awful.

 

[00:24:25:03 – 00:24:27:20] Ramit: Yeah. Did you know these numbers?

 

[00:24:27:22 – 00:24:34:12] Blake: Yeah. Okay. I mean, especially that the debt numbers and the assets. Yeah. Yeah, I know these numbers.

 

[00:24:34:14 – 00:24:35:22] Ramit: What is the debt?

 

[00:24:35:24 – 00:24:37:19] Freya: Mostly credit card.

 

[00:24:37:21 – 00:24:39:18] Ramit: That’s credit card debt. Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:24:39:24 – 00:24:47:04] Freya: I think I have some back taxes on, my small business that I started. I think that’s about it, that most of his credit card.

 

[00:24:47:06 – 00:24:53:06] Ramit: What does it mean to you when you see these numbers? Like when you look at the numbers, what is the meaning that you draw from it?

 

[00:24:53:08 – 00:24:59:24] Freya: Honestly, for me it feels like failure. It looks like failure. Especially with kids.

 

[00:24:59:26 – 00:25:07:09] Blake: What about for you, Blake? I was going to say failure as well. Yeah, it’s just depressing to look at these numbers was, you know.

 

[00:25:07:12 – 00:25:08:03] Ramit: Me.

 

[00:25:08:06 – 00:25:32:19] Blake: As hard as you know, you work to try to get ahead and then. Yeah, that’s that’s where you are. It’s just like devastating. Yeah. And you kind of look back and back for decades. Yeah. Like what how what small shifts could I have made and behaviors and spending or whatever. Yeah. And what’s the answer. I mean so many things.

 

[00:25:32:21 – 00:25:50:27] Blake: First of all you know credit just made some smart fiscal decisions and and said no more or said yes to things like the discussion about personal finances. We’re actually embrace the personal finance and look at it. Yeah. I mean it’s it’s just brutal. I mean, it’s brutal as.

 

[00:25:50:28 – 00:26:19:26] Freya: Tough because like for me, I love my kids, but I’m like, I don’t think we were in a position to have two kids when we did, honestly. And then like looking at back at Ben’s like that is a decision I could have made differently. But of course, like you talking about your children. And then when I did, I wasn’t working and I’m like, I could have tried harder, maybe to, like, get more work somehow and just paying attention, like I didn’t pay attention in, like, in the years where I was working.

 

[00:26:19:26 – 00:26:36:14] Freya: And it was easier for me to make money. I wasn’t paying attention to where it was going. I didn’t do, I didn’t do. I used to say I was, I no one taught me what to do with money, but I also didn’t teach myself like, I’m like, I know that’s a cop out now because I was like, my parents taught me nothing about money.

 

[00:26:36:14 – 00:26:48:25] Freya: They had a terrible really, you know, I put a lot of blame on them, and only recently am I like, well, you know, there’s internet, there’s books, there’s classes. Like, I could have done so much more. Yeah. And I just did it.

 

[00:26:48:28 – 00:26:50:00] Ramit: Are you doing it now?

 

[00:26:50:03 – 00:27:08:13] Freya: I mean, I’m trying. It’s like I’m like reading a books and I am trying to, like, work on getting more skills so I can find more work. But it’s like it feels so late in the game. It’s like depressing is like definitely a word that I would use. But I look at this and like, what can I do now?

 

[00:27:08:13 – 00:27:10:09] Freya: It does feel depressing. It feels daunting.

 

[00:27:10:15 – 00:27:21:11] Ramit: Okay, let’s keep going down. The rest of the KSP. So let’s talk about the income. Blake, can you read off the combined monthly gross income.

 

[00:27:21:13 – 00:27:26:12] Blake: Combined monthly gross income is 11,933.

 

[00:27:26:14 – 00:27:31:25] Ramit: You to combine make $143,000 a year. Did you know that?

 

[00:27:31:27 – 00:27:33:01] Freya: I mean, I did.

 

[00:27:33:03 – 00:27:35:13] Ramit: You did. Okay. And Blake, did you know that.

 

[00:27:35:15 – 00:27:37:12] Blake: I knew it was around that.

 

[00:27:37:14 – 00:27:39:01] Ramit: What do you think about the income?

 

[00:27:39:04 – 00:27:43:29] Blake: I think it’s not where we need to be. Not where I want to be.

 

[00:27:44:04 – 00:27:46:09] Ramit: Is it a good income or a bad income?

 

[00:27:46:12 – 00:27:58:12] Blake: It depends on your situation and how you want to live. I think how we’re currently how we have been operating in the past seven years, it’s not a great income at all.

 

[00:27:58:15 – 00:28:06:29] Ramit: Two YouTuber living like you made a lot more. Yeah. How much do you think income, the lifestyle you were living was?

 

[00:28:07:02 – 00:28:10:02] Blake: Two 5250 that’s sort of where we were.

 

[00:28:10:04 – 00:28:12:06] Freya: I think that’s I think that’s part of the problem.

 

[00:28:12:08 – 00:28:13:26] Ramit: Oh, you need to make that much. Yeah.

 

[00:28:13:28 – 00:28:17:24] Freya: I used to make a six figure low six figure salary. Okay.

 

[00:28:17:24 – 00:28:22:10] Ramit: And then you made money as well. So that combined you were making, what, 252.

 

[00:28:22:10 – 00:28:23:04] Freya: Probably to.

 

[00:28:23:04 – 00:28:25:25] Blake: My salary. 2225. And then.

 

[00:28:25:27 – 00:28:27:13] Ramit: Oh, that’s a lot of money plus bonus.

 

[00:28:27:13 – 00:28:28:18] Blake: And that’s like.

 

[00:28:28:21 – 00:28:37:02] Ramit: So you’ve, you’ve come down from, let’s just say 250 to 140. And I’m guessing you didn’t change a lot of expenses.

 

[00:28:37:04 – 00:28:38:26] Freya: And added two kids.

 

[00:28:38:28 – 00:28:49:12] Blake: Okay. It was just a cash like an avalanche of expenses and responsibilities. And that combined with exterior.

 

[00:28:49:15 – 00:28:50:29] Freya: Yeah.

 

[00:28:51:02 – 00:28:55:03] Blake: The things that have happened, with, you know, economy and.

 

[00:28:55:03 – 00:28:59:09] Ramit: Wait, wait, wait, what about the interior stuff, though, the decisions that you made.

 

[00:28:59:12 – 00:29:20:06] Freya: We didn’t we we never talked about it. Yeah. We just things changed and we just kept doing what we were doing, you know, and just avoiding it. We just avoided it. And there’s like no way around it. We just avoided it. And we also lived in like, you know, the people that are our friend group and our circle all made way more money even before we started.

 

[00:29:20:06 – 00:29:27:26] Freya: And I definitely feel like there was a leaning into it and we did not put the brakes on it. Like it didn’t matter that I wasn’t working.

 

[00:29:28:03 – 00:29:28:16] Ramit: 

 

[00:29:28:18 – 00:29:31:08] Freya: We did the exact same things we were doing anyways.

 

[00:29:31:11 – 00:30:01:04] Ramit: Yeah, I can understand the challenge of going from 250 to 140. That’s hard. Yeah, I don’t think many people have experienced what that’s like. At 250 you can spend without having to track a lot of stuff. Yeah, and at 140, with kids with debt, with additional expenses that you’re not in the same ballpark. I can understand it. I can understand avoiding decisions for a while that I can understand.

 

[00:30:01:06 – 00:30:16:07] Ramit: What I can’t understand is why you haven’t made a radical change right now. The only change that I’ve really heard is we got an app. I, Frida, am looking through the numbers, but, like, that’s about it.

 

[00:30:16:13 – 00:30:32:19] Freya: I did do some stuff like we got I cut our subscriptions down to. I think we’re down to 250. Some of them are for work stuff, so we can’t get rid of all the time. Okay, I did change what he said. We changed grocery stores. I, I did research, I didn’t know, and I started shopping at different grocery stores.

 

[00:30:32:21 – 00:30:36:13] Freya: We got rid of our babysitter. Okay. So I’ve been doing so.

 

[00:30:36:13 – 00:30:36:24] Ramit: They did make.

 

[00:30:36:24 – 00:30:38:12] Freya: Changes I have meetings.

 

[00:30:38:15 – 00:30:53:29] Ramit: Yeah. Now when we stop blaming, moving, making, tinkering changes and we just have to be still, it gets very quiet and then we have to be like, oh, there’s nobody coming to save us. Have you gotten to that point yet?

 

[00:30:54:01 – 00:30:58:18] Freya: I was going to say yes, but I don’t think I have because I haven’t changed anything.

 

[00:30:58:20 – 00:31:23:29] Ramit: Yes. So let’s take a look at the rest of the numbers. Investments are at 1% at $60. Going to a post-tax retirement account, savings are at zero. And then everything else is guilt free. Spending is -2%, which we know is not accurate. Right? You all are eating out just that at a minimum. Plus any other trips and whatever else.

 

[00:31:24:01 – 00:31:34:24] Ramit: So that’s not accurate for you. Can you read off the fixed cost number 102%? 102%. Was that mean?

 

[00:31:34:26 – 00:31:36:02] Freya: Feels like a joke.

 

[00:31:36:02 – 00:31:37:27] Ramit: Like what does it mean specifically?

 

[00:31:37:27 – 00:31:40:10] Freya: Just it means we’re living way beyond our means.

 

[00:31:40:10 – 00:32:04:12] Ramit: It means you are broke. Yeah. It means you’re spending more than you make every month. Every month. That’s the ballgame right there. Nothing else matters right there. That’s everything. It means that whatever money you are bringing in, you are spending more just to keep your fixed costs. In other words, the lights on. Yeah, there is no tinkering around the edges that will solve that.

 

[00:32:04:14 – 00:32:29:26] Ramit: And when you tell me that you have $0 in savings, what this tells me is you are actually weeks away from not being able to pay your rent. Yeah, this is the problem. Yeah. This is one of the worst financial situations that I have seen on this show. And I was shocked that it was almost $90,000 of high interest debt.

 

[00:32:29:29 – 00:32:56:17] Ramit: That is just, on its face, almost impossible to get out of. Then I see the 102% fixed costs they are spending more than they make every single month with no savings. What can I do here? Sometimes I also think about what the kids in situations like this are going to be learning. Am I going to see these children on my own show 30 years from now?

 

[00:32:56:20 – 00:33:15:21] Ramit: They’re coming on and telling me my parents never taught me anything about money. My parents were in severe debt, but they covered it up. I don’t want that. I’m trying to change these generational cycles. So when I hear that a couple is in this kind of debt, especially high interest debt, because they overspent and they have two kids, like that is a real problem for me.

 

[00:33:15:23 – 00:33:23:22] Ramit: A lot of people come to me with the idea that I have some secret magic math formula. I definitely do not. I can guarantee that.

 

[00:33:23:22 – 00:33:25:26] Freya: Let’s go, let’s quiet.

 

[00:33:25:28 – 00:33:52:17] Ramit: But I think what often ends up happening is this becomes the place that they can finally stop spinning, actually get quiet and still, and realize what the real issues are. What do you think the real issues are? Now that we are looking at your KSP and seeing tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt, no savings, effectively no investments to children.

 

[00:33:52:19 – 00:33:55:19] Ramit: What are the real issues here? Blake?

 

[00:33:55:21 – 00:34:39:20] Blake: Avoidance, lack of proactivity. You know, operating out of, kind of a negative space and just fix it with more income kind of mentality. The constant search for more income. Yes. And not being a as good of a partner to Freya and taking some more responsibility, really sit down and put my really earnest effort into solving some of those issues and really facing, like, tougher decisions that we probably should make in very near future.

 

[00:34:39:23 – 00:34:41:24] Ramit: You ever said that out loud before?

 

[00:34:41:26 – 00:34:48:16] Blake: I’ve said similar things, but it’s about action and not words. Yeah.

 

[00:34:48:19 – 00:34:51:03] Ramit: Freya, what about you? What’s the real issues going on here?

 

[00:34:51:05 – 00:35:08:01] Freya: I think a lot of it for me is feeling siloed, like we’re not in a partnership. And I think that’s hard for me because then I feel like I have to do it, but then I can’t, and then I stop. And it’s like this cycle of just not, I don’t know, I just does it. I feel like I’m doing it by myself, but I’m not doing anything.

 

[00:35:08:01 – 00:35:13:14] Ramit: I mean, as recently as 3 or 4 weeks ago, you downloaded an app. Yeah. You’re taking on more.

 

[00:35:13:15 – 00:35:22:27] Freya: I think I feel a little helpless in this situation to to do it. Like, I don’t know, I just feel I feel lost. I’m just I look at it, it feels daunting and overwhelming.

 

[00:35:22:27 – 00:35:27:19] Ramit: And what about for each other? Like, I didn’t hear you mention anything about Blake’s complete absence from it.

 

[00:35:27:19 – 00:35:49:00] Freya: Yeah, I think that’s why we’re feeling siloed. Like, I just I feel like we end up. We end up fighting about it. And it’s really hard for me to want to push the conversations because it’s so often ends negatively. And then. Yeah, and then it just we just go back into our usual like modes and I do all this stuff and then I get frustrated.

 

[00:35:49:00 – 00:35:55:16] Freya: But I don’t know, it’s like I feel like I need a partner.

 

[00:35:55:18 – 00:36:06:00] Ramit: How much you think you spend on guilt free spending or let’s call it discretionary spending. In this case, there’s a lot of guilt. Yeah, I don’t think how much you think you spend if you, you know, you eat out, let’s say how many times a week?

 

[00:36:06:02 – 00:36:09:28] Freya: Only a month. More like three times a month. Three times a year. Really pretty good about that. All right.

 

[00:36:09:28 – 00:36:14:19] Ramit: And then clothes, vacation. Personal care.

 

[00:36:14:21 – 00:36:18:21] Freya: I mean, it’s got to be at least $1,200, at least.

 

[00:36:18:21 – 00:36:20:17] Ramit: At least kids.

 

[00:36:20:19 – 00:36:31:20] Freya: A lot of that would be the kids stuff, like their clothes. And, like, we don’t take them to eat out, but like, they’re growing, they have they have tennis lesson. One of them is in tennis. One of them takes dance, you know.

 

[00:36:31:21 – 00:36:32:00] Ramit: To ask a.

 

[00:36:32:00 – 00:36:33:17] Freya: Question. Yeah.

 

[00:36:33:19 – 00:36:39:10] Ramit: For a couple that’s in almost $100,000 of credit card debt. Did their kids get to go to tennis lessons?

 

[00:36:39:13 – 00:36:48:24] Freya: I mean, ours do, and they probably shouldn’t play the scarcity thing with how I was raised and how I always made it work. And I think that’s part of my problem.

 

[00:36:48:24 – 00:36:50:07] Ramit: Like, how were you raised?

 

[00:36:50:09 – 00:37:08:09] Freya: Oh, I didn’t get to do anything. I was homeschooled, I was not allowed to do any no lessons, no not no fun. Like it was just not a thing that we did. We did not go on vacations. We did not do you know, it was not money was very always very scarce. Or I was told anyways was we didn’t have any.

 

[00:37:08:11 – 00:37:09:21] Ramit: And that’s not true.

 

[00:37:09:24 – 00:37:18:05] Freya: Now, I know it wasn’t necessarily true. They weren’t, you know, super well-off, but they were middle class. And why did.

 

[00:37:18:05 – 00:37:18:27] Ramit: They tell you that?

 

[00:37:19:00 – 00:37:41:16] Freya: I don’t know if it was the religion part of it. I think that might have had a big part of. Yeah. Just not spending. And then there was ups and downs with my, you know, my dad was the only one working. Got it. And then I was on my own at 17. So it was literally just hand-to-mouth for a really, really, really long time hand-to-mouth.

 

[00:37:41:16 – 00:37:42:09] Ramit: What does that mean to you?

 

[00:37:42:13 – 00:37:46:20] Freya: Like slept on a train when I first moved to New York, like, really didn’t have anywhere to go. Yeah.

 

[00:37:46:24 – 00:37:51:26] Ramit: Do you remember any specific phrases that they said about money phrases?

 

[00:37:51:26 – 00:37:52:21] Freya: No.

 

[00:37:52:24 – 00:37:53:24] Ramit: We can’t afford it.

 

[00:37:53:26 – 00:37:58:00] Freya: Yeah, we don’t have it. Honestly. We just. I just don’t ask for anything.

 

[00:37:58:01 – 00:37:58:23] Ramit: Were you an only child?

 

[00:37:58:24 – 00:38:00:14] Freya: No 1A5.

 

[00:38:00:15 – 00:38:02:01] Ramit: Oh really?

 

[00:38:02:03 – 00:38:07:27] Freya: And I just remember layaway. Wow. Clothes like winter coats on layaway.

 

[00:38:08:00 – 00:38:13:09] Ramit: Are your siblings in similar financial situations. Yes. All of them.

 

[00:38:13:14 – 00:38:17:04] Freya: Them the one with one exception.

 

[00:38:17:06 – 00:38:21:20] Ramit: You mentioned, your family was religious. Tell me a little bit about that.

 

[00:38:21:27 – 00:38:29:28] Freya: Oh, wow. Hardcore Jehovah’s Witness. Hardcore. Really? I did not go to school. I was taken out of school when I was ten.

 

[00:38:30:00 – 00:38:30:22] Ramit: Wow.

 

[00:38:30:25 – 00:38:53:09] Freya: So no formal education? Until I was seven. I applied for fashion school. Like I got a high school diploma from my home school. Then I applied to the fashion school, got it on my own steam, and did that for a couple years. And that’s how I ended up being able to have it a career later. But yeah, no, I didn’t go to high school.

 

[00:38:53:10 – 00:39:05:28] Freya: Everything I know I had to learn on my own, like I would go to the library and like study things because it was just, here’s what you have to do to graduate every year. I just I never got any actual education.

 

[00:39:06:02 – 00:39:09:08] Ramit: But you still religious? Oh, God, no. And you’re.

 

[00:39:09:08 – 00:39:10:13] Freya: Spiritual. But I’m not.

 

[00:39:10:13 – 00:39:12:09] Ramit: Religious. What about your siblings?

 

[00:39:12:12 – 00:39:12:28] Freya: No.

 

[00:39:13:01 – 00:39:13:27] Ramit: They’re not religious either.

 

[00:39:13:27 – 00:39:16:22] Freya: Oh, absolutely. Not even my dad’s not in the religion anymore.

 

[00:39:16:23 – 00:39:23:20] Ramit: Is that right? Wow. How do you think your religious upbringing affected your view of money?

 

[00:39:23:22 – 00:39:45:16] Freya: A lot of it did go to the church, and I was very resentful of a lot of it. I think I have a big I had a big resentment towards the whole thing because I wasn’t allowed to be educated when I was talking about what job I would want to support myself, it was like, be a locksmith so you can go preach God’s Word during daytime hours and you can work at night.

 

[00:39:45:18 – 00:40:03:06] Freya: Yeah. So there was a lot it was like very deprivation, scarcity kind of mindset. And I think that had a lot to do with it. And I had realized really early on that I would have been completely self reliant. Which I feel like also translated need like, well I’m going to do whatever I need to do for me to feel good.

 

[00:40:03:08 – 00:40:08:19] Freya: And that’s a lot of that translated to not saving, not denying myself stuff.

 

[00:40:08:22 – 00:40:21:17] Ramit: Because you were denied so often as a kid. Oh yeah. And what about the relationship here. How do you think that your religious upbringing has affected your relationship with Blake?

 

[00:40:21:19 – 00:40:29:17] Freya: I okay, well, when it comes down to saying no to one’s self, I feel like I found a kind of like my soulmate and not wanting to do that.

 

[00:40:29:20 – 00:40:32:05] Ramit: You don’t say no to yourself, nor does he.

 

[00:40:32:08 – 00:40:48:05] Freya: Yeah, but I feel like that. I felt kind of symbiotic in a way. Like we both kind of have like the same kind of laissez faire, you know, embrace life while you can viewpoint. And I think that’s one of the reasons we clicked in the first place, just like kind of our similar outlooks.

 

[00:40:48:07 – 00:40:54:01] Ramit: That outlook being, let’s say, yes, let’s take the day off and let’s, let’s enjoy what life has to offer and.

 

[00:40:54:01 – 00:41:01:13] Freya: Also work hard and like and hustle. And we both have a really big hustle mentality, hustle mentality.

 

[00:41:01:15 – 00:41:08:03] Ramit: It works until it doesn’t. You can hustle now. Yeah, you can hustle when your fixed expenses are low.

 

[00:41:08:03 – 00:41:09:08] Freya: And when you’re 25.

 

[00:41:09:08 – 00:41:18:17] Ramit: When you’re 25. Yeah. But when you have high fixed costs, including 90 K of debt, when you have two children, hustling stops working.

 

[00:41:18:20 – 00:41:21:02] Freya: We are realizing that now.

 

[00:41:21:04 – 00:41:53:08] Ramit: I really feel for Freya, hearing how she grew up in a way that most of us cannot fathom, kicked out of her house at 17. Just imagine what type of upbringing somebody had to go through in order for that to happen. Being a Jehovah’s Witness, having many siblings, none of whom are religious anymore, and almost all of whom are in similarly dire financial straits, there was obviously a lot going on when she grew up that causes long lasting effects.

 

[00:41:53:10 – 00:42:18:25] Ramit: Some of you ate pizza two days ago, and the roof of your mouth is still burn and you’re complaining about it all so difficult. My life. It is quite illuminating that Freya was kicked out of her house at 17, and here she is, maybe weeks away from being kicked out of her house as an adult. As a mother, the ways that we grow up often show up for us as adults.

 

[00:42:19:01 – 00:42:29:07] Ramit: They are often inescapable unless we make huge changes. What about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

 

[00:42:29:10 – 00:42:53:18] Blake: We don’t talk about money. We’re southern. Okay. I grew up in the Bible belt, man. You know you don’t talk about money. Wow. You don’t talk about emotions. He, you know, sweep it under the rug, right? I, you know, grew up in eastern Tennessee, you know, felt wealthy or felt privileged, for sure.

 

[00:42:53:23 – 00:42:54:17] Ramit: Why do you feel that?

 

[00:42:54:23 – 00:43:07:08] Blake: My dad was a doctor. Okay. In the small town, there was not. Layaway was not a thing for us. Take trips. Trips? Yeah. The annual summer trip. Yeah.

 

[00:43:07:11 – 00:43:11:29] Ramit: And what did that teach you? The fact that you grew up privileged, like, what was your feeling about money?

 

[00:43:12:02 – 00:43:31:26] Blake: My feeling about money was I just didn’t give it much thought. Frankly, I never talked to my parents about it. In fact, when I confided in my dad that work going to do this show last a couple days ago, he ironically said, well, it’s going to be really nice. Must be nice to be able to talk to someone about that, right?

 

[00:43:32:03 – 00:43:57:25] Blake: Wow. And I was like, yeah, what it would have been 20 years ago, right? I get a little wish I would have asked, you know, wish I would have dug a little deeper because I know there’s information there. Yeah. I didn’t know that. They at my parents struggled with their mortgage. At one point we had to ask them, hey, can we borrow five K or whatever a ten K?

 

[00:43:57:27 – 00:44:19:23] Blake: Because we’re about to, you know, get evicted. And they were like, absolutely. We can help. Yeah. Yeah it was a band aid. But it was so helpful and we’re very grateful. But then they confided and let us know that they too had a similar issue. There were points in their lives that they, you know, didn’t know if they were going to make their mortgage, etc..

 

[00:44:19:27 – 00:44:42:08] Blake: I was like, I was like, really? I’ve been shocked to even know that. Never heard any of that before. I think the main takeaway from my parents that I can remember was invest Roth IRA like burnt into the brain. That’s I actually don’t think that that’s on here. There is a Roth with 18 K.

 

[00:44:42:09 – 00:44:43:25] Freya: Oh, I didn’t know that.

 

[00:44:43:25 – 00:44:48:08] Blake: In this that I did. I’ve never told anyone about this. I don’t ever want to touch the Roth.

 

[00:44:48:11 – 00:44:52:11] Ramit: Well, that’s quite interesting. How did that not come up?

 

[00:44:52:14 – 00:44:55:11] Blake: I don’t want to cash it out for that.

 

[00:44:55:13 – 00:45:06:03] Ramit: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know that if you bring that up into this dynamic, it will simply get drained. Yeah. Okay.

 

[00:45:06:06 – 00:45:13:10] Blake: And I know the Roth I mean, from the little I know, I know Roth IRA is one thing that you absolutely shouldn’t touch and everything else has been touched.

 

[00:45:13:12 – 00:45:15:18] Ramit: So what does that feel like to hear that.

 

[00:45:15:21 – 00:45:31:15] Freya: I’m actually not. I thought I would be mad if I found something out like that. But I get it. You get it, I understand. And you know, I had a 401 K once upon a time too, and somebody convinced me to take it out and I never saw it again. And it’s so I get it. And I don’t think.

 

[00:45:31:15 – 00:45:38:08] Ramit: It’s I didn’t realize that I was asking if you can blame Blake. I just asked how it felt to hear that.

 

[00:45:38:11 – 00:45:53:17] Freya: I’m. I mean, it’s I’m surprised. And it’s like I’m also kind of relieved in a way, to know that there’s still something there. Like, I feel a little bit of relief, honestly, just to know that that there is something somewhere.

 

[00:45:53:20 – 00:46:01:11] Ramit: Like, what do you think that your little lessons about money, what are those? Have you brought to this relationship?

 

[00:46:01:14 – 00:46:05:10] Blake: Yeah, I don’t think I brought any good tools to this relationship at all.

 

[00:46:05:10 – 00:46:09:09] Freya: Just I feel like you’re being a little coy about your upbringing. You went to boarding school.

 

[00:46:09:11 – 00:46:11:26] Ramit: What’s a like? They went their.

 

[00:46:12:02 – 00:46:16:23] Freya: Their their yearly vacations were like, weeks long in Europe.

 

[00:46:16:26 – 00:46:20:17] Ramit: I feel like he’s made it quite interesting. How come you didn’t bring that up?

 

[00:46:20:20 – 00:46:22:22] Blake: I mean, that was there was one thing.

 

[00:46:22:24 – 00:46:24:17] Freya: You guys. Maybe you went to boarding school.

 

[00:46:24:22 – 00:46:26:08] Blake: Yeah, I did boarding school.

 

[00:46:26:09 – 00:46:30:26] Ramit: It’s a different caliber. Well, than we might think. Like small town doctor.

 

[00:46:30:26 – 00:46:31:23] Freya: Exactly.

 

[00:46:32:01 – 00:47:01:29] Ramit: Okay. That’s interesting. What is this shit? What are these secret accounts coming out of nowhere when they’re down to 180 bucks in their investment account? At first, it’s like, very comfortable. My dad was a little country doctor. Then the hidden IRA. Where did that come from? I certainly didn’t know about it. And the boarding school? Two secrets, two things that provide a ton of color but just glossed over.

 

[00:47:02:00 – 00:47:21:12] Ramit: That kind of changes the story. It kind of tells me you have a different view than what I was led to believe. The funniest part of this, by the way, is that I only caught on to this because I glanced at Freya’s face. As I’ve always said, the partner knows best when someone is not telling the full story.

 

[00:47:21:17 – 00:47:47:06] Ramit: I just look one foot to the left. Boom. There you go. First of all, I’m not okay with people hiding things from me. If you come here, you want help, so why would you lie when I’m trying to help you? But second is just another way of recreating this dynamic of Blake not getting into the details, of staying superficial or vague and not engaging with the meet.

 

[00:47:47:08 – 00:48:11:18] Ramit: The real fact of the matter. We got to make a change on this one. So no lessons from that. Like, let me put yourself. I’m myself in your shoes. I grew up in the South, wealthy family. I never really have to worry about money. I get the things I want and we travel and we see the world. And then I grow up and I make six figures living a pretty good life.

 

[00:48:11:20 – 00:48:31:03] Ramit: And then I blink my eyes and I find myself in $90,000 of debt, potentially about to be evicted. Yeah, I’m kind of like, I don’t understand what happened here, but I just need to keep earning money because if I just make money, then I can have the type of childhood or type of relationship that we had growing up.

 

[00:48:31:05 – 00:48:34:17] Ramit: Where did I go wrong on that? How much of that is accurate?

 

[00:48:34:20 – 00:48:44:26] Blake: Very, very accurate. All right. Yeah. It’s yeah I’ve always had I’ve had strong income, good work ethic.

 

[00:48:44:28 – 00:48:56:04] Ramit: I think you didn’t need to develop any serious skills around money. I think that you grew up your family provided provided very well. Didn’t teach you much. Right. When did you start making a lot of money?

 

[00:48:56:08 – 00:48:56:28] Blake: 30s.

 

[00:48:56:28 – 00:49:12:03] Ramit: 30s. All right. Made it spent it developed no real skills for saving, right. Investing. But you know what? A lot of people grow up privileged with their parents not telling them about money, but they don’t get into $90,000 of debt. What do you think happened here differently?

 

[00:49:12:05 – 00:49:40:02] Blake: I was just very Peter Pan esque. I’m on a good roll here. Positive outlook. Yeah. Totally naive. Of like, this will lead to more. And with each year, that salary is going to get a little bigger. Things are on my side. Not thinking about a worst case scenario. Never like imagining like, oh wow, big things can shift.

 

[00:49:40:02 – 00:49:42:08] Blake: And I have no security.

 

[00:49:42:08 – 00:49:43:28] Ramit: Blanket and life doesn’t always go up.

 

[00:49:43:29 – 00:49:58:06] Blake: Yeah, putting things on a credit card, paying down, I mean, I never and that whole time I never missed a credit card payment, you know. But pay them down. And then that just became a little more comfortable to put there. Comfort. Yeah.

 

[00:49:58:07 – 00:49:59:19] Ramit: That’s what you mentioned early on.

 

[00:49:59:24 – 00:50:17:15] Blake: Yeah. And not saying no, I don’t I’m not confrontation is not good eye confrontation has always been a problem for me or really standing up, even if I think like this is not a good idea, I’d rather just go with the bad idea and deal with it later.

 

[00:50:17:18 – 00:50:30:02] Ramit: What if I told you that in order to succeed with money, or frankly, in order to not get evicted, you will need to confront the very thing that you have avoided your entire life. Confrontation.

 

[00:50:30:08 – 00:50:58:03] Blake: I had a feeling you’re going to say. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we have to I have to for for Freya and frankly, for my children because I because it’s a, you know, very emotional because you want the kids to have a great future. And experiences and I’d rather them know the problems we’re having now than like, try to hide.

 

[00:50:58:06 – 00:51:03:14] Ramit: Yeah. So like your family did.

 

[00:51:03:16 – 00:51:08:19] Ramit: I mean you made the choice to come on here. They’re going to see this one day. Yeah. What do you think about that.

 

[00:51:08:21 – 00:51:21:18] Blake: Good I mean fine I’d rather like, you know, strip down naked and tell the truth and, like, hopefully someone learn from it. Them or someone else I do. Don’t make the mistakes that guy made.

 

[00:51:21:20 – 00:51:40:28] Ramit: Yeah. You know, that’s that is the kind of energy that I have not seen today. But that tells me you might be ready to make a change. Yeah, that’s very courageous. I think it’s a gift that your kids are going to see this one day. Because look at what happened that your parents didn’t teach you. They were very privileged.

 

[00:51:40:28 – 00:51:59:02] Ramit: Your family, they could have taught you about when times are good and when times were not. That is an opportunity they did. Not. Even today. Your dad goes, oh, it must be nice. Like there’s an opportunity for a lesson. And they couldn’t do it for whatever reason. That was their time and their style. Okay. But you too can.

 

[00:51:59:06 – 00:51:59:28] Ramit: Yeah.

 

[00:52:00:00 – 00:52:10:08] Blake: I think that’s my as we’re thinking about coming here is that’s my goal. My make that make that change. So the plane lands in a different area. Yes. For them you know. Yes.

 

[00:52:10:13 – 00:52:12:19] Ramit: And and actually for you too.

 

[00:52:12:22 – 00:52:13:16] Blake: And for us too. Yeah.

 

[00:52:13:17 – 00:52:40:28] Ramit: Yeah. This is a really difficult situation. They’re going to have to make huge changes that they are unaccustomed to. But seeing Blake stripped down basically say, I’m ready to make a change. And crying, dad tells me that there is hope. Most people in a bad financial situation struggle to even acknowledge that it’s a problem people will make endless justifications for.

 

[00:52:40:28 – 00:52:57:23] Ramit: It’s not so bad. Or at least we’re not as bad as our neighbors here. You can see that Blake is actually acknowledging they’re in a bad situation, and that is the first step to making a plan that’s going to get them out of it.

 

[00:52:57:26 – 00:53:21:12] Ramit: We need to go back to the numbers now. Now that I understand a little bit more about how you grew up, and I want to see what these numbers are specifically line by line. Okay. Let’s take a look. So under your, fixed costs, your rent is $3,480, which is 29% of take home pay, not bad in and of itself, it’s a little higher than 28%.

 

[00:53:21:12 – 00:53:29:16] Ramit: But these days that’s difficult to hit. Yeah, but it doesn’t give you any real margin for extra stuff. Did you know that?

 

[00:53:29:19 – 00:53:30:01] Freya: Yeah.

 

[00:53:30:04 – 00:53:36:07] Ramit: You knew that when you downscaled from Venice to go to Washington, you chose that.

 

[00:53:36:07 – 00:53:39:03] Freya: I was making more money at the time.

 

[00:53:39:06 – 00:53:45:14] Ramit: Okay. Got it. So you’re making more money and you’re making less now. So nowadays you’re making $2,200 a month.

 

[00:53:45:15 – 00:53:47:26] Freya: I’m making about half of what I was making before.

 

[00:53:47:29 – 00:53:54:29] Ramit: All right. Utilities, 450 insurance, 488. Car payment. 636. Does that include gas as well?

 

[00:53:55:01 – 00:54:04:00] Freya: Yeah. Okay. Once that’s a lease and it’s electric. So we don’t pay for that. But then we have another car, a second car that we own outright. And that’s.

 

[00:54:04:04 – 00:54:22:02] Ramit: Do you need two cars? Well that’s a good answer. Something I’ve said when you said I said goodbye car. Nice knowing you. Yeah. No need to tell me. We’ll get to that. But enjoy the last 12 minutes with your car. Does anything stolen? Thank you for the sign that payments are 290. There’s no way.

 

[00:54:22:04 – 00:54:28:17] Freya: No, that’s because we were. I mean, that’s the other part. We have not been making the credit card payments at all.

 

[00:54:28:19 – 00:54:29:21] Ramit: I mean, the minimums, I.

 

[00:54:29:21 – 00:54:34:15] Freya: Think late in the last couple of months when it’s been.

 

[00:54:34:17 – 00:54:36:03] Blake: I would just stopped for it.

 

[00:54:36:04 – 00:54:37:24] Ramit: So is it in collections?

 

[00:54:37:27 – 00:54:42:15] Blake: Yeah. It just hit collections last like last week or last month. Yeah.

 

[00:54:42:20 – 00:54:46:13] Ramit: When you saw that, what was your reaction.

 

[00:54:46:16 – 00:54:48:27] Blake: When I saw it? I mean, I knew it was coming.

 

[00:54:49:00 – 00:54:49:22] Ramit: And then.

 

[00:54:49:25 – 00:55:00:28] Blake: I was like, I think bankruptcy is probably the answer. So I reached out to bankruptcy lawyer and then we learned the cost of that. And it’s like, oh my God.

 

[00:55:01:00 – 00:55:02:07] Ramit: Then what was your reaction?

 

[00:55:02:07 – 00:55:07:22] Blake: Then to hang tight and figure out how to do how to cobble the money together for the bankruptcy lawyer?

 

[00:55:08:00 – 00:55:31:04] Ramit: The pattern here is a very superficial engagement with money. It’s like, don’t pay any attention to it. I’m fast forwarding a lot. Get a collections notice. And just like, all right, what’s the fastest way out of this call a bankruptcy attorney. No engagement with the numbers? No, I guarantee you have not picked up a book or done something differently because of that.

 

[00:55:31:04 – 00:55:54:04] Ramit: Collections. Notice not even doing your regular meetings. Just like, what’s the most surface level thing that can get this away from me? Because it feels bad. Do you notice that pattern? Yeah. You cannot, delegate your way out of this. You can’t. You cannot stay at the service level. And actually, the hardest part of this transformation is in the weeds.

 

[00:55:54:06 – 00:55:59:22] Ramit: And it’s the only way out. Groceries are $1,200. And that’s down from the 3000.

 

[00:55:59:22 – 00:56:03:24] Freya: That is down from. Yeah, it was a little over three.

 

[00:56:03:24 – 00:56:08:18] Ramit: K clothes, 50 phone, 260 subscriptions or 375. And that’s down as well.

 

[00:56:08:18 – 00:56:17:03] Freya: Phone’s gone down to I takes my kids off the phone plan. I’ve been paying for my adult children’s phones for since they were ten.

 

[00:56:17:06 – 00:56:42:05] Ramit: Get in tight on this. What the fuck is wrong with all these parents and credit card debt paying for their adult children’s cell phones? Are you kidding me? When I moved to New York, you know, I lived in this building is a nice building, and my very nice, naive parents from California came to help me move in. And, you know, they’re, like, helping me push the cart up the elevator.

 

[00:56:42:05 – 00:57:02:10] Ramit: And they’re looking around and they’re like, wow, there’s a lot of young people in this building. They must do very well. And I just laughed at them. Like moms, these kids parents pay for their apartment, and they were, like, flabbergasted because this doesn’t happen on the West Coast as much as in New York. They’re like, how can the parents afford to pay for their apartment?

 

[00:57:02:12 – 00:57:14:18] Ramit: I’m like, oh my God, it’s so adorable. They don’t know how this works. But yeah, here we are in debt. Yeah. Paying. No, this opens up a whole can of worms. What else have you paid for for your adult children?

 

[00:57:14:20 – 00:57:24:22] Freya: Not a lot to say. No, I did, and that is why I kept doing it. Because I had a lot. I felt guilty that I couldn’t do more for them. This was like, I for me, I was like, I was like the bare minimum. I mean, don’t you.

 

[00:57:24:22 – 00:57:31:02] Ramit: Feel guilt about having, you know, almost being evicted? What about that? Right? I don’t even like guilt, first of all.

 

[00:57:31:03 – 00:57:31:16] Freya: No.

 

[00:57:31:17 – 00:57:38:27] Ramit: So I’m being a bit facetious here, but like, the guilt of not going on a trip, the guilt of not paying for, like, grown kids phones me.

 

[00:57:38:29 – 00:57:56:14] Freya: And my au pairs until I had to take care of my old au pair. That does not work for us any longer. I’m like, yeah, no, I was like, this is insane. I don’t know what I don’t know. I like, you know, I mean, I feel I mean, I think it is because again, when I was brought up, I got nothing from my parents.

 

[00:57:56:14 – 00:58:00:24] Freya: I mean, I got kicked out. I had they gave me negative thing. They gave me negative.

 

[00:58:00:25 – 00:58:03:17] Ramit: But you’re about to get kicked out yourself.

 

[00:58:03:25 – 00:58:04:24] Freya: Yeah.

 

[00:58:04:26 – 00:58:30:01] Ramit: So while I understand that your background has influenced the way that you give and perhaps even give when you can’t say you’re about to lose it all, yeah, like I would actually get angry. I’m angry at myself, angry at my upbringing, angry at each other, angry at the dynamic that we have allowed ourselves to sink into. Why not take that?

 

[00:58:30:03 – 00:58:39:26] Ramit: Why not decide what emotion you’re going to bring to bear and then channel it like a freaking magnifying glass till it lights this thing on fire? Why not that.

 

[00:58:39:28 – 00:58:45:10] Freya: I like that. No, I like this. Then this is. I feel like I’m like that with so much of my rest of my life.

 

[00:58:45:13 – 00:58:50:19] Ramit: Yeah. Somebody who has multiple freaking notepads knows what it’s like to focus her energy. I do like.

 

[00:58:50:19 – 00:59:06:22] Freya: That with the rest of my life. And I it’s just it’s been a weird I don’t know how like it got here. We’re fighting and except for, like, I don’t the psychologically, I know I’ve been used to people taking from me. I’ve been used to not having everything used to be able to make it up. Yes. And it’s just like it’s not working anymore.

 

[00:59:06:23 – 00:59:30:09] Ramit: You made decisions over and over and over again that brought you here. Yep. Like we can we can catalog them. There was Mexico. There’s paying for adult children. There’s not saying no, there’s not having meetings. There’s not even knowing that you’re spending thousands of dollars a month on groceries. These are compounding over time, right. And they’re certainly not adjusting your expenses when you cut your income.

 

[00:59:30:09 – 00:59:53:11] Ramit: All of these things worked in tandem, like a magnifying glass. And they lit a fire to the fire. Just happened to be $100,000 of credit card debt. Okay. Continuing along, we have childcare for 1400 and kids activities for 173, and then miscellaneous, which is $1,320. Would that be fair?

 

[00:59:53:13 – 00:59:55:10] Freya: Pretty close. Yeah, yeah.

 

[00:59:55:12 – 00:59:58:16] Ramit: Child care. Can you just walk me through that? So you have childcare?

 

[00:59:58:23 – 01:00:03:14] Freya: The youngest one is still in preschool. There’s no free pre-K where we live.

 

[01:00:03:15 – 01:00:05:05] Ramit: How long until that changes?

 

[01:00:05:06 – 01:00:05:20] Freya: August.

 

[01:00:05:28 – 01:00:07:24] Ramit: And then how much will you save?

 

[01:00:07:27 – 01:00:11:07] Freya: $1,400. So, like, that’s good. Yeah. No. That’s great.

 

[01:00:11:07 – 01:00:23:12] Ramit: Good. Let’s keep going. Investments. You have $60 going. All right. Yeah. Savings are zero. And then you’ll have what else for? We talked about eating out. What else?

 

[01:00:23:14 – 01:00:25:27] Freya: Books and art supplies.

 

[01:00:25:29 – 01:00:29:14] Ramit: What’s art? That’s an Indian person’s answer. What’s art?

 

[01:00:29:16 – 01:00:32:21] Freya: I mean, I do sell my pieces.

 

[01:00:32:23 – 01:00:35:18] Ramit: Don’t do that. Let’s be intellectually honest.

 

[01:00:35:20 – 01:00:39:23] Freya: I would say spend at least $100 a month on books.

 

[01:00:39:25 – 01:00:40:06] Ramit: Go ahead.

 

[01:00:40:06 – 01:00:42:11] Blake: Blake, I would say at least.

 

[01:00:42:14 – 01:00:44:26] Ramit: Let me get an accurate number. Give me the ceiling, not the floor.

 

[01:00:45:04 – 01:00:53:11] Blake: Between Ross Michaels and books and machines that make things. There, it’s.

 

[01:00:53:11 – 01:00:56:01] Freya: Probably if we averaged out 300.

 

[01:00:56:01 – 01:00:56:15] Blake: 300.

 

[01:00:56:18 – 01:01:03:10] Ramit: 300 a month. Okay. Yeah. What do you make of me going through these numbers? Blake, what are your surprises?

 

[01:01:03:12 – 01:01:15:16] Blake: I’m not surprised by a lot in here. Yeah, I mean, I’m surprised at how little we have. Yeah, and in certain situation. But, Are you surprised by anything?

 

[01:01:15:19 – 01:01:17:04] Freya: Yeah. Our inaction.

 

[01:01:17:06 – 01:01:17:12] Blake: Yeah.

 

[01:01:17:19 – 01:01:38:28] Freya: I was shocked that we can look that we looked at this and were like, cool. Let’s go to dinner next week. It doesn’t even feel like myself, like, you know, like I it’s almost like it’s happening to somebody else. That’s kind of what it feels like to look at that and be like, I just feel like there’s like this huge chasm between me and those numbers for some reason.

 

[01:01:39:04 – 01:01:43:17] Freya: Yes. And it’s not it’s honestly, I’m frankly annoyed with my good friend.

 

[01:01:43:17 – 01:02:09:00] Ramit: You should be pissed. Yes, I am pissed. So in order for me to help you make a change, I need to know. Right now, you’re essentially just. You’re still spending the way you used to spend us. Cutting this down by $200 is going to make no difference. We got to start blank page. So I want to know rich life, but rich life starting from where you are today, what is your rich life?

 

[01:02:09:00 – 01:02:16:27] Ramit: In other words, it can’t be. We’re going to retire in five years. That’s not going to happen. What is your true rich life based on where you are today?

 

[01:02:17:04 – 01:02:24:06] Blake: I think rich life would be keeping our kids and some extracurricular activities.

 

[01:02:24:10 – 01:02:29:19] Ramit: That’s the first part of your rich life is spending money on your kids.

 

[01:02:29:21 – 01:02:40:29] Blake: Letting them do some things. Okay, you know, not taking all that because they get so much joy out of that. What else? Yeah. Family trips, whether that’s camping or whatever.

 

[01:02:41:07 – 01:02:43:07] Ramit: What role does the debt play in your rich life?

 

[01:02:43:10 – 01:02:49:28] Blake: It would feel great to start just addressing that head on, so I can sleep at night and not have to worry.

 

[01:02:49:29 – 01:02:57:07] Ramit: It’s quite interesting that kids came first, then trips not to mention of debt until I brought it up. What does that tell you?

 

[01:02:57:09 – 01:03:00:02] Blake: That it’s not forefront? Yeah, that I’m avoiding it.

 

[01:03:00:07 – 01:03:12:20] Ramit: Yes. You’re not there yet. Until you actually confront the reality that you probably have to pull your kids out of certain activities. If you want to get out of this debt, then we’re stuck. Yeah.

 

[01:03:12:23 – 01:03:24:24] Freya: I was actually shocked. You didn’t say get rid of our debt first and start saving towards our retirement. Like that’s the that’s what would be my rich life is to know that.

 

[01:03:24:24 – 01:03:25:29] Ramit: Tell me, what is it.

 

[01:03:26:02 – 01:03:51:23] Freya: That we pay down this debt, and we have a savings account for the months when we know it’s going to be late on income. And also, you know, for my rich life, I want to work. I it’s like it’s not because I don’t want to I, I’ve worked since I was 15 years old and it’s like so for me having a fulfilling career where I’m getting paid to contribute more to our family so we can do all that stuff was definitely high on my list.

 

[01:03:51:27 – 01:03:55:10] Ramit: Okay, so increasing the income. Yeah. Paying off the debt. Okay.

 

[01:03:55:13 – 01:04:05:26] Freya: I just don’t want to have to like worry about it every waking hour. That’s what that’s like honestly that’s all I need. Yeah. So I’m not like stressed out by it. Every waking moment.

 

[01:04:05:27 – 01:04:06:12] Blake: Every waking.

 

[01:04:06:12 – 01:04:16:04] Ramit: Hour. The way that you will begin to stop feeling this ever present anxiety is by making a plan. Okay, I know you have no plan. You have.

 

[01:04:16:04 – 01:04:17:17] Freya: No plan.

 

[01:04:17:19 – 01:04:35:10] Ramit: Even when I asked the plan was like well we got to put the kids in these activities. No we got to make a plan for that debt. We got to make a plan for savings. Yeah. Like we have made almost a decade’s worth of decisions that got us here. We got to make rapid big changes to shift it.

 

[01:04:35:10 – 01:04:56:20] Ramit: Okay. So do we agree on that? We have to make big changes. They have to be fast. Yeah. Great. I’m gonna put the KSP back up on screen okay. When I do that we know that our typical goal is to bring that fixed cost number down to 60% okay. In your case it’s going to be a little different because you have debt which means that 60% is going to go up.

 

[01:04:56:22 – 01:05:19:29] Ramit: We’ll deal with it okay. Here we are. As a reminder, you’re spending 102% of your take home pay on fixed cost. Unsustainable. You will lose your house very soon. So we’re going to do an exercise where each of you bounces back and forth and you make a change to your KSP. So the goal here is to make big bold changes fast.

 

[01:05:19:29 – 01:05:23:07] Ramit: We don’t want to get stuck in the weeds. Who wants to start? Actually, I already know what.

 

[01:05:23:14 – 01:05:24:13] Blake: Can we say.

 

[01:05:24:15 – 01:05:25:21] Ramit: You’re starting.

 

[01:05:25:24 – 01:05:35:23] Blake: We’re going to sell some of her art supplies. The biggest change. I feel like, would be the house.

 

[01:05:35:26 – 01:05:37:17] Ramit: You want to rent to a smaller house.

 

[01:05:37:17 – 01:05:47:24] Blake: I just don’t know if that makes sense. If the cost of moving. If we save $1,000 a month on a smaller place that we have talked about it. I know that you talked about it.

 

[01:05:47:24 – 01:05:50:16] Freya: I have talked about it and brought it up a lot.

 

[01:05:50:21 – 01:05:52:03] Ramit: Yeah. And what was your reaction?

 

[01:05:52:06 – 01:06:02:19] Blake: My reaction was just concerned that the cost of moving will mitigate any savings throughout the next year.

 

[01:06:02:19 – 01:06:23:17] Ramit: You were concerned? Yeah. This is your way of not making changes. You express concern now concern is fine. But concern is just like a way to put the brakes on any changes I can tell you right now, you’re moving costs. Especially because you can economize, you know, not get these fancy movers. Move it yourself, okay? Saving $1,000 a month is huge.

 

[01:06:23:20 – 01:06:31:19] Ramit: It compounds over time. Huge. Massive. In your case, do you think that realistically, you could find a place that you would save $1,000 a month on close to it?

 

[01:06:31:19 – 01:06:36:05] Freya: I’ve been looking and I want to stay in the same school district for the kids. Yeah. And I we can.

 

[01:06:36:10 – 01:06:39:01] Ramit: Great. How much? 1800W real estate.

 

[01:06:39:01 – 01:06:40:20] Freya: Let’s say 800 to be conservative.

 

[01:06:40:20 – 01:06:51:18] Ramit: All right. Okay. Wow, that’s a big change. Take a look at this number. The 102%. We’re down to 94% going in the right direction. Well done. Nice. Freya. What do you got?

 

[01:06:51:20 – 01:07:00:00] Freya: Big changes. Well, like I said, the car, we could probably be fine with one car. Okay? It’s hard when it’s very suburban, so it can be tough, but we could. We could.

 

[01:07:00:00 – 01:07:01:14] Ramit: Do it. How much are you going to save?

 

[01:07:01:16 – 01:07:03:26] Freya: $480.

 

[01:07:03:26 – 01:07:04:23] Ramit: You serious?

 

[01:07:05:01 – 01:07:05:19] Blake: 44.

 

[01:07:05:26 – 01:07:10:11] Freya: 44 month? No. And actually more to. Because in our assurance we’ll go down.

 

[01:07:10:15 – 01:07:13:28] Ramit: Yes. Yeah. Let’s call it 500 just to be okay.

 

[01:07:14:00 – 01:07:17:11] Freya: 136 our gas prices will go up.

 

[01:07:17:11 – 01:07:23:21] Ramit: That’s that’s which number. What’s the number say 8,989%. Well done. Keep going. What’s next?

 

[01:07:23:25 – 01:07:25:04] Freya: Child care will be gone.

 

[01:07:25:07 – 01:07:26:29] Ramit: Yeah. Check this market off because.

 

[01:07:26:29 – 01:07:28:00] Freya: The I mean.

 

[01:07:28:02 – 01:07:28:15] Blake: August.

 

[01:07:28:15 – 01:07:29:25] Freya: Unless we take too long. Yeah.

 

[01:07:30:02 – 01:07:42:04] Ramit: Take the win zero. Watch the numbers. We’re down to 75%. This is actually going way better than I thought. I gotta take a second. Celebrate. This is crazy. Okay? I mean, wow.

 

[01:07:42:05 – 01:07:46:05] Freya: Feels so much better. I’m. Oh, my phone already went out. It’s only $80 a month now.

 

[01:07:46:06 – 01:07:48:17] Ramit: Oh, really? Are you serious?

 

[01:07:48:17 – 01:07:54:06] Freya: Yeah, but I also found out I can go on a family plan and it’ll only be 120 on my phone. I just need to move.

 

[01:07:54:06 – 01:07:55:01] Blake: You up to that.

 

[01:07:55:01 – 01:08:02:22] Ramit: 124. Yeah. Watch. We’re down now to 73%. Okay. Wow. What else? Keep going.

 

[01:08:02:24 – 01:08:03:24] Blake: Kids activities. All right.

 

[01:08:03:25 – 01:08:04:18] Freya: I was waiting for that.

 

[01:08:04:18 – 01:08:07:25] Ramit: What? Yeah. What do you want to put it?

 

[01:08:07:28 – 01:08:08:29] Blake: Zero.

 

[01:08:09:01 – 01:08:30:10] Ramit: Can I make a suggestion? Yeah. I’m always for cutting kids activities when you’re in debt. But there’s some other stuff here that’s quite obvious that we could not finance. What’s the latest miscellaneous. Yeah. Like in what world is a couple in almost a hundred K of debt spending $1,320 a month on miscellaneous?

 

[01:08:30:10 – 01:08:32:23] Freya: No, wait. Literally. Yeah. I’m like, I’m sorry.

 

[01:08:32:23 – 01:08:34:06] Ramit: You get mad. This is crazy.

 

[01:08:34:06 – 01:08:35:13] Freya: Like, what even is. I don’t.

 

[01:08:35:13 – 01:08:35:20] Ramit: Even know.

 

[01:08:35:24 – 01:08:36:26] Blake: Yeah. What is we.

 

[01:08:36:26 – 01:08:38:26] Ramit: Add that so because couples.

 

[01:08:38:26 – 01:08:39:13] Freya: Don’t.

 

[01:08:39:15 – 01:09:01:29] Ramit: Date they’re loose. They don’t track it. And we know this because you used to spend double or triple on your groceries. A couple in this kind of debt cannot afford to have this loosey goosey buffer. They are meticulous. Yeah. Okay. In your case, like we’re talking about meticulous down to the level of we’re not spending an extra 30 bucks out eating because the kids are crying.

 

[01:09:02:00 – 01:09:04:13] Ramit: No cry. We’re going home.

 

[01:09:04:15 – 01:09:05:07] Freya: That’s a big snack.

 

[01:09:05:07 – 01:09:08:25] Ramit: Packers does that. Plants in your kitchen.

 

[01:09:09:01 – 01:09:14:25] Freya: The eating out is us 100%. All right. And that’s something we need to just say that you love it.

 

[01:09:14:25 – 01:09:18:12] Ramit: And can we can we just flip that instead of we need to because we’re not doing that. We are.

 

[01:09:18:12 – 01:09:19:02] Freya: Going to.

 

[01:09:19:03 – 01:09:21:28] Ramit: We will. Let’s say be eating out any.

 

[01:09:21:29 – 01:09:25:09] Freya: I was a private chef, I cook, we’ll have people over for dinner. Okay.

 

[01:09:25:09 – 01:09:35:19] Ramit: Not that miscellaneous. I’m taking that down to 200 because I’ll give you 200 a buffer. But that’s it. Oh my God, my books. 200. Yeah. Good to books. Like, ever hear of a public library?

 

[01:09:35:24 – 01:09:38:08] Freya: Actually, two. I actually do that too. I read.

 

[01:09:38:10 – 01:09:39:26] Ramit: Yeah. Go to the library.

 

[01:09:39:26 – 01:09:42:18] Blake: I do with the 200 bucks.

 

[01:09:42:18 – 01:09:49:28] Ramit: What’s your number? We’re down to 62%. I actually cannot believe this. Me neither. And we’re not even done. Keep going. Don’t stop.

 

[01:09:49:28 – 01:09:51:20] Blake: What else? Trim groceries a little bit.

 

[01:09:51:26 – 01:09:56:07] Ramit: Yes. We could try to 900. Oh I.

 

[01:09:56:09 – 01:09:57:26] Freya: Okay I would yes.

 

[01:09:57:26 – 01:10:01:20] Ramit: With four people. That’s challenging. That’s a little tough. You’re a chef.

 

[01:10:01:20 – 01:10:02:04] Freya: Yes.

 

[01:10:02:04 – 01:10:03:14] Ramit: And I like. Come on.

 

[01:10:03:16 – 01:10:06:24] Freya: No, I’m like I can be more economical than I am.

 

[01:10:06:26 – 01:10:13:10] Ramit: Can you make it 800? I wouldn’t say this to a normal. Yeah, like family. But you’re a chef. It’s like, come on.

 

[01:10:13:12 – 01:10:16:01] Freya: Yeah. I have to just take the the chef part out.

 

[01:10:16:01 – 01:10:16:17] Ramit: Exactly.

 

[01:10:16:17 – 01:10:26:28] Freya: And do the production part only because that’s where it gets me. I’m like, oh grass fed. Yeah, yeah. No I’ll do a good budget and I’ll do this and I’ll get that one day. Yeah.

 

[01:10:26:28 – 01:10:36:08] Ramit: We can’t do that anymore. It’s it’s really like, the difference in, you know, a luxury hotel. This is like, we’re just here for a clean room, and that’s it. Yeah.

 

[01:10:36:11 – 01:10:37:10] Freya: Chicken breast and broccoli.

 

[01:10:37:10 – 01:10:41:17] Ramit: It is exactly. How much? Tell me the.

 

[01:10:41:19 – 01:10:42:12] Freya: 900.

 

[01:10:42:12 – 01:11:04:02] Ramit: And the. I want to show you the reaction that you’re giving me, which is, you mentioned it earlier on. For so much of life, I have gone through basically trying to, like, I’ll figure it out or how much can I get away with. And I think that’s the energy you’re bringing to this decision right now. Yeah. And I would like to encourage you to flip that, that energy of like, how much can I get away with that actually does not work because look where we are.

 

[01:11:04:04 – 01:11:07:18] Freya: How much can I add to paying off our debts? Yes.

 

[01:11:07:21 – 01:11:10:04] Ramit: Yes. So tell me the number for groceries.

 

[01:11:10:05 – 01:11:11:26] Freya: Let’s do 850.

 

[01:11:11:29 – 01:11:16:06] Ramit: I’m no go more aggressive. You’re way too smart. Aggressive. You’re way too smart.

 

[01:11:16:09 – 01:11:19:00] Blake: Does that include wine?

 

[01:11:19:00 – 01:11:22:05] Freya: And. No, I’m guaranteeing you it does not.

 

[01:11:22:08 – 01:11:27:16] Ramit: Did everybody catch that audio? Does that include wine. What’s wine. What’s not it?

 

[01:11:27:23 – 01:11:31:01] Freya: What’s mine? It’s what. Yeah. No, obviously this is.

 

[01:11:31:07 – 01:11:38:13] Ramit: To say no. He knew the answer to good wine. Oh, my God, this is. I mean, I couldn’t script it.

 

[01:11:38:18 – 01:11:45:05] Freya: No it doesn’t, it doesn’t. Yeah it doesn’t. And it doesn’t include grass fed beef. And it doesn’t include.

 

[01:11:45:06 – 01:11:47:18] Ramit: Y’all ever hear of Safeway? Lucky.

 

[01:11:47:20 – 01:11:49:26] Freya: Yeah, I actually stop at WinCo now.

 

[01:11:49:28 – 01:11:53:03] Ramit: WinCo. Love it. Yes. Bag your own groceries. I know it.

 

[01:11:53:03 – 01:11:55:21] Freya: Way I no so good bulk section.

 

[01:11:55:24 – 01:11:58:26] Ramit: They’re so good they’re cheap okay so I just.

 

[01:11:59:02 – 01:12:01:13] Freya: That’s like how we got it down to the 12.

 

[01:12:01:17 – 01:12:16:16] Ramit: 850 is not enough. We need to go more aggressive. You’re in serious financial straits. What is it 750 yes. 750 I know, and that’s a peak. That’s a peak. It will be no higher than 750. And if you can bring it down to 700 or even love this.

 

[01:12:16:19 – 01:12:16:28] Freya: I love a.

 

[01:12:16:28 – 01:12:18:01] Ramit: Challenge. I mean, yes, let’s.

 

[01:12:18:01 – 01:12:20:26] Freya: See how we can get everything in the pantry before I even go back to the.

 

[01:12:20:26 – 01:12:21:19] Ramit: Bingo.

 

[01:12:21:20 – 01:12:23:05] Blake: That’s one of our bingo.

 

[01:12:23:11 – 01:12:48:17] Ramit: If you can defray spending money or simply avoid it for like the equivalent of three weeks or four weeks, that’s literally thousands of dollars that you saved. That money can go right towards that. Yep. That’s how you do it. As you can see, we’re making changes on the KSP, but these are actually lifestyle and attitude changes. And I can be creative enough.

 

[01:12:48:17 – 01:13:03:19] Ramit: Yeah. To to provide for this family using my skills and paying the debt off aggressively. Well done. The number at 57%. Come on I think you all need to give yourself a round of applause so far. Good job.

 

[01:13:03:20 – 01:13:07:03] Freya: That’s it. Yeah, I didn’t I can’t even clap because I, I’m like really.

 

[01:13:07:03 – 01:13:11:04] Blake: Can’t I, I really don’t want to move.

 

[01:13:11:07 – 01:13:12:13] Freya: Okay. And that’s fair.

 

[01:13:12:13 – 01:13:14:25] Blake: We’ve moved like we’ve moved our family so many times.

 

[01:13:14:25 – 01:13:17:27] Ramit: So what are you going to do then. Because we need the number to be lower.

 

[01:13:17:28 – 01:13:20:28] Blake: If can we just see what it looks like if we keep it? The old ran. Yeah.

 

[01:13:20:28 – 01:13:30:04] Ramit: What was it, 30, 30, 40, 34, 80. All right. Good question. I like that you’re asking hey, can we talk about this or that. That’s great. Takes you back up to 65% okay.

 

[01:13:30:07 – 01:13:34:03] Freya: Not it’s still not good. I also feel like I could make more money, like.

 

[01:13:34:04 – 01:13:34:21] Ramit: Talk to me.

 

[01:13:34:21 – 01:13:38:00] Freya: I, I right now I am working ten hours a week.

 

[01:13:38:07 – 01:13:39:09] Ramit: How much can you make? I mean.

 

[01:13:39:09 – 01:13:51:15] Freya: Realistically, I could work 20 hours a week. I, I’d have to find a new source of that income. I don’t think it’s an impossibility. Yeah, I think I should be at least, at least able to bring that up to 3200 a month. I do.

 

[01:13:51:15 – 01:13:52:03] Ramit: 200 a month.

 

[01:13:52:03 – 01:13:55:18] Freya: Right. It’s another $1,000 a month. Yeah, I could do that.

 

[01:13:55:22 – 01:13:56:19] Ramit: Okay. And you just.

 

[01:13:56:19 – 01:13:58:13] Freya: Have to be more I have to be more aggressive about the job.

 

[01:13:58:17 – 01:14:10:06] Ramit: I mean, I’m going to hardcode this in to be 10,800. Okay. It’s not accurate but it’s in the ballpark. Yeah. Watch the number on fixed costs 60%. Not bad.

 

[01:14:10:06 – 01:14:11:16] Freya: That’s not bad.

 

[01:14:11:18 – 01:14:41:17] Ramit: Here’s how I might think about it. If I were in your situation I might say okay, we prefer not to move. However, we need to get these numbers aggressively down. Right. If you can find a job in the next four weeks that generates $1,000 a month, okay, not 600, not 800, $1,000 gross, we can stay. If not, we move like that is the level of decisiveness that you bring to this problem.

 

[01:14:41:19 – 01:14:49:27] Freya: I like that, okay. All right. I’ll be very motivating. I also don’t want to move. Yes. I’ve moved 20 times in my life. Okay.

 

[01:14:49:29 – 01:15:03:02] Ramit: Then. It’s very clear what needs to happen. So and your roles are very clear which is like you have to provide the you have to hit the numbers on the groceries. Yeah. And you have to find a job if you want this plan to work. And if not, you know exactly what it’s going to what you’re going to do.

 

[01:15:03:02 – 01:15:07:26] Freya: Can I have an ask please. Can you help with the grocery stuff? Can we do that together?

 

[01:15:07:29 – 01:15:08:10] Ramit: Yes.

 

[01:15:08:10 – 01:15:14:27] Freya: I hate doing it by myself. And then being also, it feels like a lot of pressure to be like I’m the only.

 

[01:15:14:27 – 01:15:19:05] Ramit: One that does it need to be both of you? Or can you just delegate that? Can he bring it and you cook?

 

[01:15:19:11 – 01:15:20:23] Freya: Let’s make a menu together.

 

[01:15:20:28 – 01:15:29:14] Blake: I would propose that we make the menu together, use our skylight and plug it in there. So we have all that stuff. And when there’s there’s.

 

[01:15:29:14 – 01:15:30:08] Ramit: Less less.

 

[01:15:30:08 – 01:15:32:17] Freya: Loosey goosey and like, oh, I didn’t plan today. Yeah.

 

[01:15:32:20 – 01:15:34:01] Ramit: What’s the skylight?

 

[01:15:34:04 – 01:15:37:07] Freya: Oh it’s our scheduling. It’s like a calendar. It’s like the.

 

[01:15:37:07 – 01:15:40:18] Ramit: Family. Okay. Yeah, yeah. But who’s going to pick up the groceries?

 

[01:15:40:20 – 01:15:45:13] Freya: I think I’ll do. I don’t mind doing it. I just do like the planning part I would like to do together.

 

[01:15:45:13 – 01:15:51:22] Ramit: Okay, great. So you all need to make a time. Yeah. You do it. It needs to be on the schedule. And there’s no more unscheduled like. Yeah, go.

 

[01:15:51:22 – 01:16:00:10] Freya: Run and get this. Oh, I decided I’m making this today. Instead I can and I because I get I do get tired of doing it sometimes I like that happens. So it would be nice and I’d be nice to do it together.

 

[01:16:00:10 – 01:16:16:00] Ramit: All right. Great. Let’s get let’s look at the box. Let’s look at the risk investments at $60. All right. Fine. We can keep it. That doesn’t really do anything but okay. Savings are at zero. That’s got to change. I just want to point out, look at the look at the bottom of the CSP. You currently have $4,000 a month.

 

[01:16:16:02 – 01:16:18:23] Freya: That does not feel like a real number.

 

[01:16:18:25 – 01:16:25:07] Ramit: Yeah. It’s real how I look at it. Six faces like what do how you know they.

 

[01:16:25:08 – 01:16:27:21] Freya: By budgeting and I’m sorry by having a is.

 

[01:16:27:22 – 01:16:50:26] Ramit: Because you cut dramatically. Yes. You cut a lot. You cut $1,000. You increase your income. You may or may not, cut the rent. You cut thousand bucks off of miscellaneous and then hundreds and hundred dollars from various things is very impressive. That means you have 4000 bucks a month to distribute. How do you want to use that money?

 

[01:16:50:29 – 01:16:52:11] Freya: That savings.

 

[01:16:52:14 – 01:16:54:10] Ramit: Good. Which one comes first?

 

[01:16:54:11 – 01:17:02:27] Freya: That no savings? Yeah. The kids. I think it’s really hard to have that. Like, oh, wow. They might not have a roof over their head.

 

[01:17:03:01 – 01:17:03:29] Ramit: Yeah, that’s a big problem.

 

[01:17:04:03 – 01:17:05:27] Freya: Yeah. So I feel like savings.

 

[01:17:05:27 – 01:17:22:02] Ramit: I do agree that savings is more important right now. I can’t believe I’m saying that to a couple in almost six figures of credit card debt. But the fact is, you have two kids and you are almost, yeah, out of your house. That’s you cannot allow that to happen. Do you see why I am moving so quickly?

 

[01:17:22:05 – 01:17:48:20] Ramit: You don’t have time to decide about this or that. Like you need the money now, which means any groceries that you were going to spend on don’t. Because you have the pantry. Yeah. The car. Get rid of it as quickly as possible. All these other changes immediately stop and go back and double check the subscriptions, because even an extra hundred dollars that you were about to spend, like phone, you need it for savings.

 

[01:17:48:20 – 01:17:49:15] Freya: Yeah.

 

[01:17:49:18 – 01:18:11:17] Ramit: That’s it. It’s as simple as that. You have to attack it with ferocity. Yeah. Okay. I think that we would want to look at a debt payoff plan, but in your case, you can call the credit card and talk to them about you’re in hardship. You need to make a plan that works with them. And what can they do for you?

 

[01:18:11:22 – 01:18:21:13] Ramit: Okay, okay. So there’s several things your credit is going to be in trouble. Yeah, it’s already gone to collection. So even moving is going to be challenging for you. That’s you’re. Yeah that’s what’s happened.

 

[01:18:21:13 – 01:18:23:01] Freya: So my credit is good.

 

[01:18:23:02 – 01:18:23:16] Blake: Yours.

 

[01:18:23:16 – 01:18:26:09] Freya: Yeah okay. Now but we’re trying and try to keep it that way.

 

[01:18:26:15 – 01:18:49:04] Ramit: Yeah. So yeah call them use the scripts from chapter one of my book. You’re going to have to spend at least a couple of thousand bucks a month to pay that debt up. I shouldn’t say at least you can spend less. They will let you. You can use the debt payoff calculator on my website, and that will allow you to see how long until your debt is paid off, right?

 

[01:18:49:06 – 01:18:55:24] Ramit: Guys? With thousands of dollars a month now, you could pay that relatively quickly. Yeah, especially if your income goes up.

 

[01:18:55:25 – 01:18:58:23] Freya: And I love you idea. I love that idea.

 

[01:18:58:25 – 01:19:18:09] Ramit: You might have noticed that I didn’t allocate the perfect amount for them to put in their debt payoff plan. Why? It’s kind of like you buying one of those taken baked pizzas. You know they’re made, but you take it home and put it in your oven. You get a sense of satisfaction from doing it yourself. There is something to that here.

 

[01:19:18:09 – 01:19:38:18] Ramit: I need them to go through the calculator themselves. I need them to realize that it’s going to take months, actually years to pay off this debt. And hey, if we put an extra 200, it will shave that down by six years. It is important for them to get their hands dirty, to get tactile, to get involved. And that is true for so many parts of money.

 

[01:19:38:23 – 01:19:51:14] Ramit: We’re not just looking for some AI tool to do the whole thing for us. I want you in there feeling it, baking it, even if you need a little help, so that you know what it takes to be successful.

 

[01:19:51:17 – 01:19:54:11] Blake: The real game changer would me in full time.

 

[01:19:54:11 – 01:19:55:18] Ramit: Can you do it?

 

[01:19:55:20 – 01:19:58:11] Blake: I can, I can go full throttle.

 

[01:19:58:14 – 01:20:00:22] Freya: Trying to find a yeah full time.

 

[01:20:00:22 – 01:20:01:24] Ramit: Position like he’s.

 

[01:20:01:28 – 01:20:21:11] Blake: I run my own company now with a partner. Yeah. And but it is you know it is a hustle and it’s some good months, some bad months. And so we tried to come up with the number here. But when I go in-house as a creative director. Yeah. You know, it’s usually, you know, a 200, 250 salary.

 

[01:20:21:13 – 01:20:30:15] Ramit: Can we just do this now like I would send a text message right now. Lock it down. That is that that is the biggest thing you could possibly do. Yeah.

 

[01:20:30:17 – 01:20:33:29] Freya: Especially for 400 K and all this things that come with it.

 

[01:20:34:01 – 01:20:42:24] Blake: I’ve never made this little money in my life. And so now it’s like I just I think that for me is the, the fastest. Yes.

 

[01:20:42:26 – 01:20:49:28] Ramit: Yes. What are the possibilities knowing the economy and your space, how likely is it that you could get a job like that?

 

[01:20:49:28 – 01:20:55:05] Blake: I mean, if I go, I think it’s probably 75, 80%.

 

[01:20:55:05 – 01:20:57:27] Freya: And like within like how long do you think six months a year.

 

[01:20:58:01 – 01:21:02:18] Blake: Like 3 to 6 months. Wow. Yeah. And that’s really like that.

 

[01:21:02:21 – 01:21:03:21] Ramit: Surprising shocked.

 

[01:21:03:27 – 01:21:04:22] Freya: Yes.

 

[01:21:04:24 – 01:21:06:24] Blake: I mean everyone says it takes it, but I, you know.

 

[01:21:06:29 – 01:21:33:18] Ramit: Do we all agree that that is the route to take. Yeah. You agree. Do you agree. Yeah. Okay. Done. Amazing. Okay. Blake can go out and seemingly earn tens of thousands of dollars more in a new job. That doesn’t happen very often. That’s not for everybody, but it is for them. And the fact that they haven’t done that yet, that he hasn’t done it, is actually what I want you to take away from this.

 

[01:21:33:20 – 01:21:57:00] Ramit: Oftentimes people’s houses are burning down and there’s a fire hose right there and they don’t even pick it up. You don’t know why most of us are problem oriented, meaning we love to talk about our problems. We agonize over them, we elaborate on them, but very few of us, I would estimate fewer than 5% of people are solution oriented.

 

[01:21:57:02 – 01:22:20:15] Ramit: Meaning we look for solutions. We try one, we try another. The interesting thing is we can be solution oriented in one part of life, but not in another. And for whatever reason, money tends to be one of the primary areas that people are problem oriented but not solution oriented. If you’ve got a financial problem, you may have a solution right in front of you.

 

[01:22:20:19 – 01:22:45:03] Ramit: Forget about the fact that he can make $50,000 more. That’s not the point. The question to apply to your own financial situation is, do I have a fire hose right in my front yard? And why am I not picking it up? Going full throttle on that would allow you to increase your income, your income for you. Your income would go up, your household income would massively skyrocket.

 

[01:22:45:03 – 01:22:51:03] Ramit: And here’s the key. Here’s where you will likely fail unless you make a change. Can you tell me what it is.

 

[01:22:51:04 – 01:22:55:04] Freya: Sticking to the see as me like? Now we can spend $3,000.

 

[01:22:55:04 – 01:23:14:20] Ramit: Because when you get into the 175 200, you’re like, oh, let’s like loosen up. Let’s not. No. Usually couples I go, yeah, you’re spending you’re making more. Go ahead and spend a little bit more. In your case, it will actually be purer to just be like, we’re not those people anymore. For now, we are going to only focus on debt and savings.

 

[01:23:14:20 – 01:23:17:28] Ramit: Yeah, we are not. It will even seem nonsensical at points.

 

[01:23:17:28 – 01:23:21:18] Freya: Yeah, but I would really love to do to get the kids involved. Even this little.

 

[01:23:21:19 – 01:23:23:17] Ramit: Tell me. Yes, tell me, how would you do it.

 

[01:23:23:19 – 01:23:37:02] Freya: If my six year old’s been asking for a bank account? Like he has a little notebook that he keeps all his little change in and. Yeah. And I was like, okay, you know, but I would, you know, even I said, with the meal planning, let them help, let them pick out something that we can cook and they can like.

 

[01:23:37:05 – 01:23:38:18] Freya: I’ll even take them to the grocery store.

 

[01:23:38:20 – 01:23:39:04] Ramit: Yes.

 

[01:23:39:04 – 01:23:40:19] Freya: One at a time. But.

 

[01:23:40:19 – 01:23:43:15] Ramit: The only choices they have are like broccoli. Yeah. Or rice.

 

[01:23:43:15 – 01:23:52:00] Freya: I mean, you’d be shocked with the. My kids love broccoli and rice, but. Yeah, but but literally getting them involved. And then when we say no, we can show them why.

 

[01:23:52:01 – 01:23:52:16] Ramit: Yes.

 

[01:23:52:16 – 01:23:59:16] Freya: And they can have like a little savings account and be like, no, let’s put this dollar here. And now look at your bank account.

 

[01:23:59:23 – 01:24:00:09] Ramit: That’s how, you know, I.

 

[01:24:00:09 – 01:24:04:29] Freya: Feel like that’s something that you did since then, like I certainly never got. Doesn’t sound like you did.

 

[01:24:05:01 – 01:24:22:00] Ramit: You all have a gift of an opportunity here, which is to let them in on what’s going on. And they may not understand what $99,000 of debt is, right? Maybe they don’t even need to hear it at that age. But to tell them, look, right now we realize we need to make a change and we need your help.

 

[01:24:22:01 – 01:24:24:10] Ramit: Can you help us? Yeah. They’ll be like, yes, okay.

 

[01:24:24:10 – 01:24:29:17] Freya: Make them a sticker. Sure they can. Exactly. They can be like, did it spending you guys get a gold star, mom and dad.

 

[01:24:29:22 – 01:24:45:01] Ramit: And when you do that, yes, you’re helping them, but actually you’re helping yourself. Yeah. Because your new identity as a couple who will not allow yourselves to stay in debt. You’ve now publicly told your kids that. Yeah. So how can you go back on it?

 

[01:24:45:04 – 01:24:46:00] Freya: Yeah.

 

[01:24:46:02 – 01:25:14:17] Ramit: I think you have a very viable plan. And I have to say, I am pleasantly surprised and even shocked. The reason for this is twofold. One, on the income side, you both have the possibility and skills and you are willing to make more money. That’s not easy. If your kids were a little younger, that wouldn’t be possible. Yeah, but you’re in this place where, wow, you both can do it and you’re willing to do it.

 

[01:25:14:17 – 01:25:25:06] Ramit: That’s amazing. That’s teamwork. Yeah. Now, the only thing that matters is will you actually stick to the plan? I mean.

 

[01:25:25:08 – 01:25:27:10] Freya: I want to stick to this plan. I’m going to stick to the plan.

 

[01:25:27:11 – 01:25:28:26] Blake: Until I feel.

 

[01:25:28:28 – 01:25:35:06] Freya: It’s going to feel so much better. Yeah. I mean, even just like I there’s just no way it can’t feel better than this.

 

[01:25:35:09 – 01:25:35:24] Blake: Oh, no.

 

[01:25:35:24 – 01:25:44:21] Freya: And if we’re all about comfort, let’s not be miserable. Every time we make a put our head on a pillow and start having racing thoughts about this, like, this is so stupid that we’ve been doing this.

 

[01:25:44:24 – 01:25:59:04] Ramit: I’m putting just, for example, $2,500 a month in savings. Okay. And we still have 1728. Y’all can have how much you think you should have in guilt free spending, just a ballpark per month.

 

[01:25:59:04 – 01:26:03:20] Freya: Per month like in our situation right now. Yes. 250.

 

[01:26:03:20 – 01:26:05:17] Ramit: Great. What do you think?

 

[01:26:05:19 – 01:26:07:18] Freya: 215 yeah. Totally doable.

 

[01:26:07:25 – 01:26:22:27] Ramit: Okay, that’s an amazing answer. That’s kind of like what I was thinking like 250. That’s like, you know, 1 or 2, one thing with the kids and maybe one thing for the two, and that’s it. Yeah. Can you do it? Because this is a different life than the kind you’ve been leading.

 

[01:26:22:29 – 01:26:24:07] Blake: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

[01:26:24:07 – 01:26:36:06] Ramit: You could do it. Do doing then what that allows you to have like roughly 1500 bucks a month, even more to put between debt payoff and savings. Oh, okay. That’s a lot.

 

[01:26:36:09 – 01:26:38:08] Freya: It’s like, how do you become.

 

[01:26:38:10 – 01:26:58:11] Ramit: Yeah. You know, part of this what’s happening here is that when you are in it with your money, most people never zoom up to look at the bird’s eye view. And even to be able to zoom up requires you to work through a lot of psychology and emotions and relational issues.

 

[01:26:58:11 – 01:27:14:18] Blake: That’s the thing, as you get into it, and then it becomes a you or you and like, why did that was, you know, and yeah, to have this like you said, bird’s eye view and an objective view point. I also wanted to ask you if you wanted to move in with us a little.

 

[01:27:14:18 – 01:27:41:28] Ramit: What makes yeah, getting a little extra rent would be I do love I do love to read. Okay. I want to say that I’m so impressed at how far you’ve come on the KSP. The reason that we’re able to make this plan, which just seemed to kind of breeze by in part, is that you were willing to acknowledge certain change the way you were brought up, the way that you need to relate to each other, and the focus that it’s not you versus you.

 

[01:27:41:28 – 01:27:52:06] Ramit: It’s we have a plan as a family. Yeah, this is our plan. What are we both going to do so that we can accelerate this plan?

 

[01:27:52:08 – 01:28:11:01] Freya: I love a plan and I love the goal is so helpful because I feel like we didn’t have there wasn’t a even goal really out loud said to work towards. So what? It felt like we were saving or trying not to spend it. I was like why? Yeah, what for? What’s the angle? Is it going to look like if we do this and we never did that?

 

[01:28:11:03 – 01:28:28:27] Blake: Yeah. And I you know, I wanted to say thank you to you for oh, thanks for pushing me and to hear and getting us was you book at was you know. Yeah. And I feel you know emotional about and about.

 

[01:28:29:00 – 01:28:51:28] Blake: You know where we’ve been and our trying that is. Yeah. But I feel good walking out of here. Maybe a good cry after a while. It would be nice. But like to, to see the future selves that I know we are. We’re good partners and we like each other and we have great kids and we can, you know, in a year or two, like, look at what is that richer life, you know?

 

[01:28:52:01 – 01:28:52:17] Blake: Yes.

 

[01:28:52:22 – 01:29:04:12] Freya: I felt like I came in here very hopeless and helpless. Yeah. I felt helpless with a lot of this. And just like small changes, big changes. But like that, I’m on a grand scheme of things. Small that we can do this.

 

[01:29:04:14 – 01:29:07:07] Ramit: Great. Yeah, great. How about you?

 

[01:29:07:10 – 01:29:12:17] Blake: I feel quite emotional to be honest. I mean, I’m on the brink of tears.

 

[01:29:12:20 – 01:29:14:01] Ramit: How come? Just.

 

[01:29:14:04 – 01:29:40:14] Blake: Yeah, because feeling helpless and just being, you know, like you mentioned, being siloed. And it’s not a fun place to be, you know, to, like, be knowing you’re both have somewhat of the same vision or goal, but then you’re just kind of working at it in two different ways. So just having that, you know, that idea of partnership is a kind of beautiful thing.

 

[01:29:40:17 – 01:30:05:10] Ramit: Yeah. Yeah it is. It’s beautiful to see. I’m actually very confident in this couple. I would not have expected that. Looking at the severity of their situation, but their reactions really give me a lot of confidence. The fact that they both moved through the fixed costs aggressively, that they are both suggesting earning more money, quite amazing, quite rare even on this show.

 

[01:30:05:10 – 01:30:23:22] Ramit: When they walked in to talk to me today, they were not on the same page. They were siloed, not partners. Quite remarkable that by the end they were encouraging each other. They were smiling. They were a team. I’ve shown them how to do it. Now it’s up to them I team.

 

[01:30:23:24 – 01:30:24:17] Freya: Hi team.

 

[01:30:24:17 – 01:30:31:13] Blake: A little follow up video here. We wanted to discuss our, biggest surprises from the day. Now that we’re back at home.

 

[01:30:31:13 – 01:30:33:10] Ramit: Yeah.

 

[01:30:33:13 – 01:30:51:12] Blake: And I think for me, one of the biggest surprises was just how doable, how plausible the plan is. Now that we have it in place, we have the information that we need to look at everything globally from a top down level.

 

[01:30:51:14 – 01:31:08:20] Freya: Yeah. I think that my biggest surprise was how accessible it felt when we went through the numbers with, for me and like line by line, we’re like, okay, we can make this change, this change. At the end of it, I was like, oh, there is a lot for this end of the tunnel. I’ll say that was my biggest surprise.

 

[01:31:08:25 – 01:31:14:20] Freya: There’s a light at the end of the tunnel. It doesn’t feel insurmountable. Yeah. Just doable.

 

[01:31:14:23 – 01:31:19:09] Blake: Yeah, yeah. Not easy. Not a cakewalk. No. But doable.

 

[01:31:19:10 – 01:31:20:14] Ramit: Yeah.

 

[01:31:20:16 – 01:31:23:09] Blake: Especially if there’s a partnership involved.

 

[01:31:23:12 – 01:31:43:20] Freya: Yes, I think that was another big take. That a takeaway, I would say, is that how much of it needs to be a team effort and not one person doing, trying to do the work, the other person avoiding? Like, we really have to figure out a way to do this together. We’re getting there. Is that take time?

 

[01:31:43:22 – 01:31:52:10] Freya: And so I think that was one of my biggest takeaways. And that. Yeah, just sort of tap it like, what am I to do list and just line by line, go down, make the changes.

 

[01:31:52:12 – 01:32:17:04] Blake: It’s just interesting to look back at that experience that we had with her made that day, and then see how many of those behavioral patterns actually extend into my life in general, and not just in the finance world. So big takeaway there that I need to make some fundamental changes in how I operate behaviorally on a day to day and big picture.

 

[01:32:17:06 – 01:32:24:26] Blake: So yeah, that was a real awakening. And yeah, thanks for that. I’ve had that moment in that clarity.

 

[01:32:24:29 – 01:32:47:17] Freya: There definitely have decided on some changes to make. Going down to one car and probably in the next month or two. Yeah. Grocery bill I have I’m taking on the challenge of getting that down really, really like in half almost of what we were spending. It’s, that is two goals that we have right now.

 

[01:32:47:24 – 01:32:55:16] Blake: Another specific change is just to really be more mindful of our baseline of spending.

 

[01:32:55:16 – 01:32:56:15] Freya: Yeah.

 

[01:32:56:17 – 01:32:57:14] Blake: It’s so easy to do.

 

[01:32:57:14 – 01:32:58:09] Freya: Little things that.

 

[01:32:58:09 – 01:32:59:13] Ramit: Just creep in.

 

[01:32:59:16 – 01:33:07:06] Blake: The little things to grab the little thing here when you’re shopping and a little $20 here and $30 there. So really trying to hone that in.

 

[01:33:07:09 – 01:33:18:19] Freya: I almost feel like we need to do like a jar, like a swear jar, but accept this thing. When we buy something miscellaneous, we have to return it. Or if we want to buy with to put them. Now that are.

 

[01:33:18:22 – 01:33:19:12] Ramit: Not.

 

[01:33:19:14 – 01:33:21:14] Blake: I’m not a terrible idea I guess.

 

[01:33:21:16 – 01:33:22:00] Ramit: Yeah.

 

[01:33:22:02 – 01:33:32:02] Freya: Oh my God. It’s like children. Yeah. I think those are the big changes that we’ve decided to make. We decided not to move. Gonna stick it out here, and.

 

[01:33:32:02 – 01:33:35:00] Blake: We’re hoping that we still look on Zillow and.

 

[01:33:35:00 – 01:33:35:19] Ramit: All of that.

 

[01:33:35:20 – 01:33:37:01] Blake: All the time.

 

[01:33:37:03 – 01:33:37:29] Freya: For the time being.

 

[01:33:38:03 – 01:33:40:07] Blake: For the time being.

 

[01:33:40:10 – 01:33:41:20] Freya: Oh, and work.

 

[01:33:41:22 – 01:33:42:09] Ramit: Work.

 

[01:33:42:14 – 01:33:54:14] Freya: I mean, I personally have, you know, did all the things I need to do with my portfolio and my LinkedIn and my resume. So I’m ready to, like, jump in and really start trying to find what work and increase our income.

 

[01:33:54:17 – 01:34:14:13] Blake: So, yeah, increase income. Yeah. That’s a big priority. What to write up that knows that. And I’ve even started putting out the, the feelers, and saying out loud, but I am aggressively pursuing opportunities, rather than just.

 

[01:34:14:16 – 01:34:15:13] Freya: Putting out feelers.

 

[01:34:15:18 – 01:34:35:13] Blake: Rather, rather than putting out feelers, actually saying it out loud and contacting people started back. So that is feels good. This continued, well, continue. But just saying it out loud and letting people know has been, yeah, a good first step. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks a lot. They I’m.